[Pops]

On request I split off the Crazies gun debate to here. Let's stay with the San Bernardo Crazies in this one...

[Plantagenet]

Farook was a radical Islamist and he was in contact with other known terrorists by email and phone----but the Feds screwed up and he was never investigated

Oooopsies.

san-bernardino-shooter-radicalized

It was just a few days ago Obama assured the nation there was no imminent terror threat in the USA. Looks like the Feds never investigated this guy and missed this little terror cell in San Bernadino. Farook had big plans---he was busy making "pressure cooker bombs" like the Islamist nuts who blew up the Boston marathon---.

[Subjectivist]

Thanx Pops! What I want to know about is the interview with the neighbor who said there were a bunch of visitors in and out at all hours. The implication being those people whomever they were helped plan or at least might have heard hints about the attack before time.

Have we learned anything about them?

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')t was just a few days ago Obama assured the nation there was no imminent terror threat in the USA.

[Sixstrings]

@Cog
You were right, the left is turning it into a gun control debate:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')illary ClintonVerified account
‏@HillaryClinton Hillary Clinton Retweeted The New York Times
I refuse to accept this as normal. We must take action to stop gun violence now. -H

[Sixstrings]

I agree with Jeb Bush:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')ov. Jeb Bush: We Should Declare War on ISIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InXMkwrf9vA

[Newfie]

Just a bit of news tid bits, somewhat contradictory.

1. The Wife apparently made a face book posting under an alias, just before the shooting, praising the leader of IS.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') Facebook executive told The Associated Press that Tashfeen Malik posted the material under an alias account at 11 a.m. Wednesday. That was about the time the first 911 calls came in and when the couple were believed to have stormed into the San Bernardino social service center and opened fire during a holiday party.

[Cog]

ISIS kills fellow Muslims in Iraq and Syria. Maybe the Muslim at the party was one not following Islam strictly enough.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')SIS kills fellow Muslims in Iraq and Syria. Maybe the Muslim at the party was one not following Islam strictly enough.

[Newfie]

Yeah, who knows. It is an interesting incident. No word yet on the nature of the dispute before he left.

[Synapsid]

If the shooters were Ahmadi then pretty much all Muslims would, shall we say, view them with disfavor. I expect that the view would be returned by the shooters.

[Plantagenet]

I think the title of this thread should be changed. These shooters weren't crazy---they were observant Muslims. Even their own local Imam says they were nice decent observant Muslims.

Since the two shooters were supporters of the Caliphate, in their own minds they were doing the right thing by following their Caliph's instructions to attack people in the west in order to defend the Moslem Caliphate.


Moslems aren't crazy---they just have different religious beliefs then Christians or Hindus or most people who aren't Moslems.

[Newfie]

There is something to that argument.

One could say something similar about most of us.

I think it is widely accepted on this forum that we are driving Earth to significant change which will be very negative for humanity, possibly fatal. It's widely accepted that economic growth is, in the long run, poisionious to the planet and our species. Yet our greatest and most admired leaders all strongly support strong economic growth. Growth which may well lead to our own extinction. Sounds pretty bat shit crazy to me.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I') think the title of this thread should be changed. These shooters weren't crazy---they were observant Muslims. Even their own local Imam says they were nice decent observant Muslims.

Since the two shooters were supporters of the Caliphate, in their own minds they were doing the right thing by following their Caliph's instructions to attack people in the west in order to defend the Moslem Caliphate.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'M')ight as well, "being serious" does nothing.

The NRA says mass shootings are covered under the bill of rights.

[Cog]

Here is the NRA Mission Statement:

The purposes and objectives of the National Rifle Association of America are: 1. To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, especially with reference to the inalienable right of the individual American citizen guaranteed by such Constitution to acquire, possess, collect, exhibit, transport, carry, transfer ownership of, and enjoy the right to use arms, in order that the people may always be in a position to exercise their legitimate individual rights of self-preservation and defense of family, person, and property, as well as to serve effectively in the appropriate militia for the common defense of the Republic and the individual liberty of its citizens; 2. To promote public safety, law and order, and the national defense; 3. To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms; 4. To foster and promote the shooting sports, including the advancement of amateur competitions in marksmanship at the local, state, regional, national, and international levels; 5. To promote hunter safety, and to promote and defend hunting as a shooting sport and as a viable and necessary method of fostering the propagation, growth and conservation, and wise use of our renewable wildlife resources. The Association may take all actions necessary and proper in the furtherance of these purposes and objectives.

How Pops turns that into the NRA believes mass killings are covered by the Bill of Rights must require some prodigious mental gymnastics.

[Newfie]

The whole gun argument is more than likely a red herring. It is something that polarizes folks and gets them worked up but has little to do with the real problem.

I'm trying to develop these thoughts so I many wander a bit.

The "real problem" has much more to do with how we function as a society or culture. It may well be that the "real problem" is that we are loosing faith in our government's ability to function.

Jared Diamond makes the point (very well) that governments function is to keep us from killing one another. The smaller the governmental unit the higher the incidence of personal violence. In short small hunter gatherer groups have continual low level warfare between adjacent tribes. Governments set rules for resolving disputes without murder. As the government's get bigger (chief, lord, King, kingdoms, empires) they get better at this kind of control. More laws, more government intervention, less death.

Of course in order to gain this law and order the citizen needs to agree to the controls and in the process forfeits some personal liberty.

In the USA we have a patchwork: in many areas the citizens adhere to the normal rules and things go along fairly well. However there are other areas where governmental control is shaky at best. This is where you see a lot of interpersonal violence, the murder by gunfire inside the ghettos.

There are other signs of this. The ghettos are also typified by the rise of some pseudo government. The Mafia, or similar organizations come to mind. But so do groups like the Hells Angles. Or the various inner city gangs. Each of these groups has its own internal set of laws, rules to live by within the group. If you abide, the group protects you from outsiders. If not, you are dealt with. But, because the groups are smaller there is more interaction with other adjacent groups, there is more opportunity for violent interaction.

That's what's going on here, the government is loosing its grip on ever larger segments of the population.

We may not be having a rational national debate about this, the topic has not been "outed." But I think folks are intuitively picking up on the trend. This then makes those folks who live in law abiding areas nervous, and they react by saying "I think I'll get a gun, just in case." Just in case of what? Anarchy, societal collapse, government shut own.....caused by peak oil, climate change, stock market crash, racial unrest, whatever?

The government likes to keep us jacked up and afraid because they are selling security. Security is their "product." There are two camps of reaction to this. On the one hand more and more folks are getting the idea that it is hollow promise, they are starting to arm themselves. Others, for what ever reason, perhaps they feel unable to protect themselves, turn ever more to the government asking for more control, more protection.

I think this accounts for the dynamics we see unfolding.

As a consequence we have a lot of guns in the country. I heard a stat today, someone please correct me if wrong, that just about half of gun related deaths are suicide. This is an artifact of having a well armed but depressive society.

Most of the rest are young black males on young black males, those most likely to not feel a part of the larger society, as described above.

Then there is a smaller set of murders due to domestic violence, armed robbery, assault, etc.

All this does little or nothing to address the mass shootings, which although horrific, really account for relatively few deaths.

[Cog]

About 64% of gun related deaths are suicides according to this link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... homicides/

[Newfie]

Thanks Cog.

I'm at the hunting cabin, 1bar 1x connection.

Searching the Internet is out of the question.

Unfortunately the DSL at the house is not much better. But as we are moving shortly I'll suffer through.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'A')bout 64% of gun related deaths are suicides according to this link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... homicides/