[C8]

If there has been one big trend that has not slowed down one bit in the last 25 years, it is the trend to move everything to computers. It began with military, businesses, then to home communications, etc.

Now people rely in computers to find their way to shops, transfer money, job hunt, etc. With the push to make an "internet of things" there may come a day where you can't buy a refrigerator, stove, blender, kidney machine, etc. that s NOT dependent and controlled by computers or the internet.

But it is even more severe in the business and government sector where power grids, financial transactions, drone targeting, warehouse stocking, traffic lights, train speeds, airline flight paths, medical records, etc. are already becoming dominated by the internet.

The question that comes to my mind is: Is this wise to put all of the eggs we need to run civilization into the internet basket?

The analogy that comes to mind is of the cheetah. It has evolved over thousands of years to catch only on thing- gazelle. It has evolved to becoming so specialized that it is on an evolutionary branch that dead ends. If the gazelle dies the cheetah dies.

A nation could conceivably wage war on another nation and brings to riots in the street just by taking over its infrastructure and downing it like a plane. Or an EMP could cause chaos in a matter of hours.

Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

[AgentR11]

The internet is pretty resilient as long as you accept less than 99% uptime. As long as some modest wait time is acceptable for those times where failures occur, either battle or weather related, then it's fine. And its efficiency and global character can make a lot of the needed power-down requirements realistically possible. Whether thats from working online, to ordering goods online as opposed to making a trip to the store for every little thing.

If I order a box of dry noodles, it shows up at my door, but the only energy cost associated with its delivery, was just its weight and space on a truck that would make that route regardless. That is incredibly efficient; as long as the net provides wide coverage access to a near unlimited number of vendors.

I also LIKE that this dependence makes war seriously uncomfortable for those that might choose to cause it. The net infiltrates all levels, you get used to being able to have a box from Shanghai show up in a few days on your doorstep anytime you feel like it. Without the net, this can't happen with J6P, and it can't happen for Bob the millionaire or politician. So everyone in the civilized world has a "comfort" stake involved with maintaining the peace enough for the net to function.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', '
')Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

[Pops]

I'm much less of a Luddite than I once was, as Agent said, microprocessors are the path to greater efficiency (without resorting to the terminal efficiency of elimination).

I was more of a primitivist until recently. Seems to me that improvements have happened pretty fast in actual practical technologies Lately. PV, Lithium batteries, LEDs, tiny $5 computers like the Raspberry Pi and of course multi function phones are all reaching very practical levels.

EMP is a threat, but then before that, so was just the plain old A-Bomb, and before that the machine gun, the cutlass, blah, blah.

Buy a metal trash can, line it with cardboard to isolate it from the contents, stick in whatever electronics you deem necessary; spare electronics, replacement parts, etc. Seal the lid with some metallic duct tape then stick it in the bunker (or back of the garage).

LOL, not too worried about whomever spying on me through the refrigerator: Total Information Awareness and "see something - say something" is plenty powerful enough to take down civil liberty.

[AgentR11]

As long as they don't ask me to comment on said reality show, or expect me to not step on their cameras when I rummage through my attic, I frankly don't care.

I know some of yall think its a big deal, and I'm ok with that. But I've long since gone way past the "if you don't have anything to hide" excuse; I'm all the way to the point that I believe the authorities will create whatever evidence they feel they want for whatever purpose they wish; and they don't even need any evidence in the first place to completely wreck the modern life of any non multimillionaire they wish, at any time they wish, for any reason, or no reason at all other than amusement.

Heck, they generally can shoot and kill anyone they want with minimal consequences; usually just a transfer to another town's forces; so why pretend?

Course.. some might think I'm a doomer and discount my perception of reality. lol.

[PrestonSturges]

It's not a question of the state spying on you through your laptop and television, it's also copmanies compiling a huge dossier on everything including your favorite ice cream, religion, porn, reading habits, politics and then selling that information. And then there are also stalkers, internet trolls, and ex-spouses who can hack into your home via a dozen unprotected points.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I')t's not a question of the state spying on you through your laptop and television, it's also copmanies compiling a huge dossier on everything including your favorite ice cream, religion, porn, reading habits, politics and then selling that information. And then there are also stalkers, internet trolls, and ex-spouses who can hack into your home via a dozen unprotected points.

[Shaved Monkey]

Hopefully you will be able to download addblock to your fridge

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', 'H')opefully you will be able to download addblock to your fridge

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')
I was more of a primitivist until recently. Seems to me that improvements have happened pretty fast in actual practical technologies Lately. PV, Lithium batteries, LEDs, tiny $5 computers like the Raspberry Pi and of course multi function phones are all reaching very practical levels.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') recognize the efficiency and resiliency of the internet and these positives but I see the cost in terms of the subjective effects this has on humans aligning all of their tasks through this cyber channel.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') recognize the efficiency and resiliency of the internet and these positives but I see the cost in terms of the subjective effects this has on humans aligning all of their tasks through this cyber channel.

[onlooker]

Resurrecting this thread to highlight this all too real menace deriving from a digitally connected and reliant world
http://theweek.com/articles/441194/why- ... t-internet
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy World War III will be fought on the internet

[KaiserJeep]

I agree, time that we updated this thread. I was just marvelling at the Internet-connected, dual-camera refrigerators at the Fry's Electronics chain store.

These refigerators are bleeding edge, Cost range from $5800 to $11,000, and have medium-sized HDTV panels in one door:

Features vary, but these appliances can recognize humans, associate them with planned diets, and gently chide people who eat more than their calorie allowance. They can also plan menus and order foods online for delivery, and will keep a careful inventory of contents complete with freshness dates.

Meanwhile, if you really want to, you can sit on a kitchen stool and hold a voice-recognition type conversation with your appliance, surf the web, or watch entertainment. (The software for these chatty appliances is still half-baked, but remember I did say "bleeding edge".)

The concern mentioned in OL's message above is being addressed. Multi-level distributed grid management, microgrids and nanogrids, are the ways we are re-structuring the existing power grids to harden them against cyber attacks:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/first-utilityscale-microgrid-in-us-enters-service
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/nanogrids-microgrids-and-big-data-the-future-of-the-power-grid

We are not doomed by cyber warfare, but we are in danger. We can adress and manage the risks, or hide from them:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/computing/it/an-optimistic-take-on-cybersecurity-from-qualcomms-alex-gantman

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', 'I')f there has been one big trend that has not slowed down one bit in the last 25 years, it is the trend to move everything to computers. It began with military, businesses, then to home communications, etc.

Now people rely in computers to find their way to shops, transfer money, job hunt, etc. With the push to make an "internet of things" there may come a day where you can't buy a refrigerator, stove, blender, kidney machine, etc. that s NOT dependent and controlled by computers or the internet.

...

Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') agree, time that we updated this thread. I was just marvelling at the Internet-connected, dual-camera refrigerators at the Fry's Electronics chain store.

These refigerators are bleeding edge, Cost range from $5800 to $11,000, and have medium-sized HDTV panels in one door:

[Newfie]

The problem isn't computers, the problem is we have too many people for the available, and decreasing, work load. We are about 90% superfluous.

[KaiserJeep]

Newfie makes a point, most humans are doomed for the dustbin of obsolescence. They will either have menial service jobs, mostly in elder care, or they will "earn" one of the few true Middle Class jobs remaining with a college degree or several years apprenticeship. Those that fail to qualify for work will have a monthly dole check, the above-mentioned $250 refrigerator, and a $250 bicycle for personal transport, and HDTV/Internet.

That was always in the cards, the "industrial Revolution" is in the fourth wave after 500+ years, with true A.I. and digital robotic slaves pending in the fifth wave.

[Newfie]

KJ,
It is inevitable that those redundant peoples will mostly be relegated to the dustbin, quite literally. They are a threat to those who have and unnecessary. Sad but likely.

At the current moment, and in the West, they are tolerated because they perform the function of "consumer" to drive the economy. That will not last forever.

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he problem isn't computers, the problem is we have too many people for the available, and decreasing, work load. We are about 90% superfluous.