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Packin' it in...so much for P.O. planning

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 21:56:45

Yeah, the scenario you paint is all too true. Glad my mom is stong enough to avoid such a fate. My dear grandmother had a very good arrangement for her last days. I loved her very much. I used to spend 5 weeks each summer with her in Ensenada, Baja California where she had a trailer on the beach. Maybe that's where I learned to like Mexicans. RIP Gertrude!
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Unread postby Sparaxis » Thu 30 Jun 2005, 22:23:27

pea-jay, I've followed your story as well. And was appalled at what you described as the attitude in the planning agency there. I think your choice was a very hard one to make, but the right one.

Someone of your skills would be a great asset to some of the nascent economic relocalization efforts growing in N. California, the one at Willits in Mendocino Co. being the most prominent so far.

As for water, most people--including most Californians-- don't understand the diversity in California. There's a very distinct rainfall isoline right at the Golden Gate. South of there rainfall is generally 20" or less a year and declining, all the way to San Diego; north of there, it increases steadily all the way to the Oregon border, the most within 20-30 miles of the coast. At a place I have in Sonoma Co. only 60 miles north of SF, I measured 53" inches this winter, and normal is 40". (SF normal is 21") By the time you get to Mendocino and Del Norte counties, the dry season shrinks to just 4 months instead of 6 (as in Oregon), and rivers run year round. It is definitely cooler and wetter. And you get to retain some California sanity.

Good luck with your decision and I hope you post here or on your blog how the process goes.
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Unread postby madison » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 02:26:31

Good for you for making a tough decision. I hope it will be the right one for you and your family. I just made a similar decision.... I relocated from Phoenix, AZ to Northern Nevada. Not my A#1 choice, but it has the advantages of a better climate, family and I can scope out northern CA and southern OR from here. I was so spooked by Peak Oil, that I skipped out on my lease even. I don't regret it at all. Knowing we are in a safer place (hell, anywhere would be safer, lol) has been a weight off my shoulders and I sleep better at night.

May your move be good to you, too. Good luck to you and yours!
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Unread postby pea-jay » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 03:03:36

Thanks everyone for the thoughts so far...

In response to points made in this thread:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.') but doesn't the agri irrigation come from the Sierras by gravity? If that is the case won't there always be food and water there?


Yes, but we already need more than runs off our own mountains. Run-off is quite significant but is unpredictable. Some years there is a lot of runoff, other years substantially less. Besides, surface water has been "allocated" (meaning sold) to old-line property owners and other types fortunate enough to have decended from the original settlers/ethnic cleansers (depending on your viewpoint) that diviied up the county. We have grown far beyond what surface water provides to us.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')there's always openings up this way. Pay's probably not what you're used to, typically 40-50K and good benefits, but pace of life and work is slower and better.


40-50K?? Thats better than what I get now. I am not sure if I will get into planning wherever I end up. That's fine, I can work from outside the system if need be. As what the folks in Willits prove, change does not need to come from within the local government. My position on local government work is that I would consider it if an opportunity presented itself. Otherwise, I have other ideas (more on that later)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o please doo not build a filthy mcmansion and act like a pOS cali boy. blend in with the "tribal" folks. we need more of you to wage the war that will be inevitable up here.


Damn. No McMansion. Does that include my hot tub and Hummer too??
In all seriousness, I never bought into consumeristic culture nor lived like the typical californian. When I lived in San Diego, my wife and I only owned one car and that was mainly for suburban shopping (we lived in North Park) and out of town travel. I commuted to work and both of us to SDSU via bus, walked to grocery shopping and biked small errands. In my less enlightened area, I take the bus to work. We live in a small old house with pellet stove heat and evaporative cooling that is located central portion of the city (walking IS an option). I wear my clothes until they wear out and try to repair broken items until they have to be junked. And truth is I could still live with alot less.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oo much liberal bring em all in mentality is destroying the last vestiges of a sustainable infrastructure.


I'd argue that the bring em in mentality springs not from liberalism but from profit driven big business. Big biz always looks for the cheapest possible way to provide a good or service. But unfortunately not all jobs can be outsourced. So we declare a phoney labor crisis and allow workers to flood in (LEGALLY) encouraging others to come in (ILLEGALLY, but with tacit government approval). The classic liberal response that may irk you is that diversity is good, more diversity is better mantra. All cultures are good and we must be welcoming and accomadating to all those who settle among us. But liberals didn't bring them in (how dumb does this sound? " Let's let millions of people come to this country so we can be the biggest, most diverse country on the planet") it was big business. Plain and simple. With slower population growth setting in the late sixties and early seventies it became clear: employers, eventually you will have to pay more for your labor. So they increased the labor pool. Especially industries dependant on low wage work.

Sorry. Got distracted.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ortland


From a planning stand point, this urban area impresses me. But fundementally it is too crowded and like all large cities world wide, too dependent on imported resources. Portland is by no means Los Angeles. But my moving from an over extended region to a less impacted region and living a lower impact lifestyle will go alot further than adding to the drain on resources that Portland is. This is not meant to be a critisism of Portland, just simply stating my moving there will not solve anyone's problems.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N'). California


I almost would prefer to stay in the state. I am impressed with those northern coastal counties. I'd love to be a part of that, but finding a place with a job opening (teaching or planning) has not been fruitful. Plus real estate is pricier in this state, making rental or ownership costs higher. If I were to stay in the state, I would consider any number of Northern CA counties, north of the Bay area, along the OR border or in the Northern Sierra Nevada.

For those of you suggesting the south and appalachia, thanks but no thanks. I hate heat and humidity, ruling out Florida. Plus Florida has too many inhabitants. As for Appalachia, some of my dad's family originated from West Virginia (and still live there) so I am familiar with the state. The place gives me the creeps. I can't put my finger on it, but I just don't feel comfortable there.
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Unread postby pea-jay » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 03:19:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('madison', 'G')ood for you for making a tough decision. I hope it will be the right one for you and your family. I just made a similar decision.... I relocated from Phoenix, AZ to Northern Nevada. Not my A#1 choice, but it has the advantages of a better climate, family and I can scope out northern CA and southern OR from here. I was so spooked by Peak Oil, that I skipped out on my lease even. I don't regret it at all. Knowing we are in a safer place (hell, anywhere would be safer, lol) has been a weight off my shoulders and I sleep better at night.

May your move be good to you, too. Good luck to you and yours!


Wow! I was wondering where and when you would relocate. You had mentioned that you lived somewhere totally doomed in the future. At least at the moment, these kind of hasty, last minute moves are still possible. I get the feeling sometimes there is a noose tightening. A kind of tickling sensation now, but as time goes on, the feeling will get ever tighter. It's gotta be this summer for me as well (Keeping fingers crossed!)

One thing I have pondered is the pooling of resources/efforts of those in the know that are trying to make a move, but do not have the advantages of a fat bank account or someone they know in their intended destination. I am not imagining a collection of people purchasing a property with the intention of setting up an intentional community, but rather a collection of people with similar viewpoints simply settling in the same area. Maybe neigbors of each other, maybe in the same town or county. Sure, if there was a larger piece of property several families/individuals could go in on the purchase together to reduce costs, but for the most part each family would settle independently. With more than a handful of like minded individuals in a village or small town tucked away off the beaten path, i'd say that this could be a pretty modest and doable, P.O. survival plan that doesnt depend on pure survival skills.

Just musing I guess.
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 04:49:28

Pea jay,

I think your conclusions are sound.

if you move to a colder climate, just make sure you have plenty of available wood for heat.

Also make sure to research what the land was used for, and why it is for sale. Ask neighbors about the town/location and any potential drawbacks.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby holmes » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 13:08:35

I agree we now have these "definitions" of liberal and conservative that arent really what they mean. another tactic to confuse us. when i use the words liberal and conservative i use them in truth. So when i mean liberal i mean overload, alot, many, too much, ya know liberal amounts of breeding, etc.. Conservative is me. I am conserative with everything. I dont buy food if its in a package that cant be recycled or reused. Unless desperate. I am conservativer with my paper use, my computer time, using natural resources, etc..

Consertive and liberal have been destroyed by the capitalistic greed. They want us all confused. Its so bad now that a "liberal" like myself is trulyu conservative but is considered a commie liberal in this upside down world. So I am not going to use these two words anymore. No wait fuck it lets redefine them. I will always consider myself conservative becuase using liberla amounts of things is a waste and unsustainable. But I am "progressive" according to the capitalist shadow. :)
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Unread postby holmes » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 13:39:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('madison', 'G')ood for you for making a tough decision. I hope it will be the right one for you and your family. I just made a similar decision.... I relocated from Phoenix, AZ to Northern Nevada. Not my A#1 choice, but it has the advantages of a better climate, family and I can scope out northern CA and southern OR from here. I was so spooked by Peak Oil, that I skipped out on my lease even. I don't regret it at all. Knowing we are in a safer place (hell, anywhere would be safer, lol) has been a weight off my shoulders and I sleep better at night.

May your move be good to you, too. Good luck to you and yours!


Wow! I was wondering where and when you would relocate. You had mentioned that you lived somewhere totally doomed in the future. At least at the moment, these kind of hasty, last minute moves are still possible. I get the feeling sometimes there is a noose tightening. A kind of tickling sensation now, but as time goes on, the feeling will get ever tighter. It's gotta be this summer for me as well (Keeping fingers crossed!)

One thing I have pondered is the pooling of resources/efforts of those in the know that are trying to make a move, but do not have the advantages of a fat bank account or someone they know in their intended destination. I am not imagining a collection of people purchasing a property with the intention of setting up an intentional community, but rather a collection of people with similar viewpoints simply settling in the same area. Maybe neigbors of each other, maybe in the same town or county. Sure, if there was a larger piece of property several families/individuals could go in on the purchase together to reduce costs, but for the most part each family would settle independently. With more than a handful of like minded individuals in a village or small town tucked away off the beaten path, i'd say that this could be a pretty modest and doable, P.O. survival plan that doesnt depend on pure survival skills.

Just musing I guess.


I dont either bro. But I have the right people in my camp. a motley crew of Hippies, artists, farmers, workers, carpenters, intellects, Tech folks, etc.. all in one geogrpahic location. If your the typoe who cant stand The stinking commie hippies or the commie educatioanl elites or those damn eco freaks you will die post peak. Blending in with diferent types is key. Or youll be on the outside with invalids who will be pounding on the mall window(ala dawn of the dead). And I respect and love my elders. Real elders. You know the ones that teach the values of ma earth and the correct ways of the earth. Not an elder who clears out huge amounts of resources to put their play house in. These areas will be worthless in the near future. there is no industry. there is no agriculture around these areas. Nothing but tracts with dying old people. My granpa does not approve of this present logic. Thats why he doesnt like many in his age group. And the baby boomers have failed us. If your interested in earthship building in the NW email me. Im getting a work crew together. by 2008 I should have a duplex 2storied jobber built 100% off grid.
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Unread postby jupiter422 » Sun 03 Jul 2005, 22:31:54

I live in southern ca, ----Escondido Ca, this place is the last place I plan on being. My family and I are moving to fairbanks, Alaksa. I'm gonna buy a small house with a wood stove and some land. Alaska The last frontier. I can't wait to get there and start setting up camp 8). I know that it's cold ,but I it's much better than southern cali. I grew up in a small town in michigan population 1,100 people. So i think....

CALIFORNIA SUCKS!!

My wife grew up in alaska. It has abundant game , plus a billion salmon, that run the rivers every year..In the summer time it's daylight like 18 hours a day or something and the vegetables get huge and the harvest produce good yields. Plus there is like abillion acres of freakin land to disapear into.

goog luck to you all :-D
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Unread postby jupiter422 » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 17:17:18

I don't understand that when ever I mention going to alaska, Every one freaks out .Yes it's cold ,but cold is manageable expecially with a wood burning stove. Alaska is the last frontier .The place is filled with natural resources - galore! .Plus the population is small. Not to mention anyone that lives in alaska loves alaska.anyone that doens't live there just aitomatically assumes it to be a frozen hell.
Global warming is actually warming the climate in alaska faster than anywhere in the world. I have family in fairbanks that have lived there the past 45 years and they have said the winters have been getting milder every year. So because alaska wouldn't be most peoples first choice to live . tHats exactly why it's my first choice. I'l take my risk.People survived alaska durning the gold rush, didn't they

PSTARR----
I can not imagine staying in southern california in my one bedroom apartment with my wife and daughter.Trying to survive a post peak southern california environment. Where are the resources?I HAVE NO LAND.I CAN'T AFFORD A HOUSE IN THIS PLACE WITH A MEDIAN HOUSE AVG. OF 450K . MOST HOUSE HERE ARE MCMANSIONS ANYHOW.Please explain to me the logic in suggesting to me to stay in this desert called southern california which is only sustained by imported resources, water oil, food, Pstarr please tell me what i'm missing that makes califonia a better choice than a place that probably has more abundant resources than many ,many other ideal locations.
I just don't get it Pstarr do you understand the mexican border is only 40 minutes from where i live. I can't believe your advice would be to stay here in my circumstance. :twisted: [smilie=new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif]

Either your an idiot or you pretend well . Peak oil is only a problem because People like Pstarr breed and have bred!!
Last edited by jupiter422 on Mon 04 Jul 2005, 19:09:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby jupiter422 » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 17:21:29

just kiddin Pstarr I just can't follow your advice.I must get away from this place. I hate it here wayttoo much. Good luck too you . I will be fine in Alaska so don't worry 8)
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Unread postby pea-jay » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 04:57:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')hat's why I moved out here 12 years ago. I was a kid in the sixties but I heard the message and listened really closely to what President Carter said 25 years ago. I knew the SWGTHTF but bid my time and made a nice small scale life for myself. Now I am in eco-paradise and surrounded by farmer-friends, solar technicians, hunters/gatherers, and lots of native americans to show me the way. you must live inland. I live on the coast.


Well, I am a little behind you. I was maybe 4 when Carter spoke about energy, which was undoubtably over my head at the time. The first politician I heard speak about the environment was Al Gore, and I thought to myself, gee we ought to change our ways eventually. Not exactly a wake up call though, while the most I managed to do for the environment was live modestly, eat locally and not drive (much) from 1990-2001. Heck I didn't even own a car for over half that time. But understand industrialized civilization's limits? Nope. Didn't cross my mind until last year.

Now, I am working overtime trying to wiggle myself into a modest sustainable existance, in a small community that I can contribute to (and not be knocked senseless for speaking up in). I don't have any savings or equity to leverage, so I must depend on my labors to sustain me. I could offer a lot to a small community whether it is labor (I can build things--and improvise if materials or tools are limited), planning advise (this is after all my profession) or just a helping hand when needed. I'd really like to get involved in the agricultural sector. I work with it (indirectly) here and can't help but notice what a mess it is. Of course, I reside in the capital of Big Ag, so what do you expect.

But in anycase, I realize survival in the future will definately require teamwork. It isn't about building that McMansion (or McFortress) in the hills.

I'd like to get to that eco-paradise or atleast an area capable of not believing that "thinking green" means trying the find the most profitable way to make a buck off the earth.
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Unread postby oowolf » Tue 05 Jul 2005, 16:19:57

Hey dude, you can buy a house in Noxon, Montana for $37,500. Climate zone 5, on Clark's Fork of the Columbia River in a county (Sanders) that's larger than the state of Maryland with a population of 10,000 with a near equal mix of practicing Anabaptists and redneck survivalists surrounded by 6 million acres of forest.

I'm seriously beginning to believe things will begin unravelling this winter.
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