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THE Georgia Guidestones Thread (merged)

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 03:21:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon1', '5')00m is too few for a modern industrial system.

Why? Look at how efficient most manufacturing is now. The factory may be big, but it's mostly full of machines and they make a LOT of stuff. From DVD players to peanut butter, a handful of factories make essentially the entire world's supply of such products.

Besides, how about less stuff, but quality stuff as a goal? Since when is having a McMansion stuffed full of crap (including the three car garage that the cars can't fit in due to all the junk) a good thing?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 03:57:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')It would leave psychological scars that wouldn't heal just because we hit the magic population number.


Two things come to mind here. A die-off due to "natural" causes would not leave psychological scars. On the other hand survivors looking back very well might view human brutality as a "natural" consequence to overcrowding as in the quote from Asimov that Newfie referred to. In this way psychological scars can be codified into taboos against breeding beyond carrying capacity in the ideology of the surviving population. Along with following many of the other guidestones.

The powerful catalyst of consequences is an ideology breaker and an ideology creator. That is where many here fail to understand the cultural plasticity that very well may lead us one day toward sustainable ideologies. Between here and there is a major hurdle.... the loss of 90% or whatever percent of the current human population.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 04:24:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon1', '5')00m is too few for a modern industrial system.

Why? Look at how efficient most manufacturing is now.


It is, and yet the numbers involved in the industrial system remain well above 1bln. Reduction will result in decline.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby davep » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 05:14:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', ' ')It would leave psychological scars that wouldn't heal just because we hit the magic population number.


Two things come to mind here. A die-off due to "natural" causes would not leave psychological scars. On the other hand survivors looking back very well might view human brutality as a "natural" consequence to overcrowding as in the quote from Asimov that Newfie referred to. In this way psychological scars can be codified into taboos against breeding beyond carrying capacity in the ideology of the surviving population. Along with following many of the other guidestones.

The powerful catalyst of consequences is an ideology breaker and an ideology creator. That is where many here fail to understand the cultural plasticity that very well may lead us one day toward sustainable ideologies. Between here and there is a major hurdle.... the loss of 90% or whatever percent of the current human population.


If the process is passive, I would agree. IIRC American Indians went through a similar process and codified sustainability into their spirituality and general life. But, for me, the problem with such an approach is that it tends to let us off the hook *now*. No need to look for genuinely sustainable practices in one's own life (including food, shelter etc), let's just wait for nature to take its toll.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 05:53:13

Actually stability seeking must be built into us, despite the hysterics. A phenomena broadly known as the moiety system appears to have emerged independently in many parts of the ancient world, along with many means of direct population control. Indeed it appears rapacious out of control breeding is a very recent development.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 08:39:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'A')ctually stability seeking must be built into us, despite the hysterics. A phenomena broadly known as the moiety system appears to have emerged independently in many parts of the ancient world, along with many means of direct population control. Indeed it appears rapacious out of control breeding is a very recent development.


There is a fundamental point here that is often missed. When humans lived within the boundaries of their natural environments they interacted with deep intelligence with these same environments, both in the technologies used to extract resources and also the cultural rules and regulations and taboos that were honed to maintain resiliency. This created very stable populations that endured for millennium.

Our current dependency with modern technology has enabled us to grow so powerful that we have created a man made ecosystem that has caused us to leave behind this intimate coexistence with our natural environments. That is why this rapacious out of control breeding happened. We blame fossil fuels or technology for this explosive population growth when actually it probably has to do first with abandoning those resilient self controlling cultural mechanisms that existed when we related directly and more intimately with the natural environments we coexisted with.

This is why I remain with a healthy optimism about the outcome of human overshoot. First because consequences will force us once again to apply both our technology and cultural life toward living in a balanced way within nature's constraints. And secondly, this is exactly what we did for millennium so we know we can because we did already for most of our species history.

Folks often insist that we can't change and that we are stuck at an impasse which will lead to our extinction. They conclude this analyzing our culture during this strange period which is an anomaly.

I compare the staying power of our current culture to that of an 18 year old guy full of performance anxiety in bed for the first time with his first girl friend.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 08:55:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')imply reducing population is a great step forward.


Such a huge decrease in population (over 90%) would be even more brutal than nazi Eugenics, requiring a massive organised cull beyond sterilisation for the non-chosen ones (leaving less than one in 10). I'm not sure how the process of getting there can be squared with the lofty ideals of the society once we are there. It would leave psychological scars that wouldn't heal just because we hit the magic population number.


While I agree with all the above where we are headed is near to zero population with massively scared planet. How is that better than the above?

Understand, I have no path forward, for all the reasons you state.

But simply speaking the goal starts to enable conversation, which is a beginning. Perhaps without an end but a beginning none the less.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Cog » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 09:01:08

Aztecs also play soccer with the heads of their vanquished enemies. There was also the blood-letting of piercing the penis, among other body parts, to bloody up the field. Doesn't mean I want to do the same.

Well sometimes. :)
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:54:39

Ibon,
Here is wishing your optimism well, even though I don't share it.

How low do you think the human population will drop during the transition back?

How high can it be and remain sustainable?

SWAGS
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 13:04:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')bon,
Here is wishing your optimism well, even though I don't share it.

How low do you think the human population will drop during the transition back?

How high can it be and remain sustainable?

SWAGS


Impossible to answer. If we take the Asimov story as a reference as well as economic factors we can make some conjecture on a sweet spot for human population along with consumption per capita. And your comment to Cog was spot on, personal liberty and freedoms are related to population. The more we are in overshoot the more constrained your freedoms.

I am less interested in the eventual number where we will plateau and much more interested in the process of getting there.

This touches on Davep's point as well that surrendering too much over to consequences can be quite passive and not pro active.
My interest in natural consequences is precisely how they can act as a catalyst to awaken human society to become pro active in how they manage their population and consumption. Without consequences acting as catalysts the vast majority of humans today lack any incentive. So natural consequences jump start the process.

I am guessing we are within the window short term where this is beginning. Especially for millennials this will be a dominant theme in their lifetimes. For us aging baby boomers we will exit seeing only the opening acts.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 14:29:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I') do not see the word freedom or individual liberty mentioned in the ten point list so no.




We don't have to reach so far back to our HG ancestors to see the intelligence with which we interacted with our natural habitats. Let's look no further than say North America in the 19th century. Most citizens gained their lively hoods from agrarian or forestry of fisheries jobs. They lived in small communities. They had many obligations to their families and communities. The population was low enough that there were still vast areas of native habitats and the population level provided a good standard of living. Folks back then were deeply integrated with the organic bio regions where they lived and personal liberty back then had mostly to do with tangible skills and trades that enabled one to sustain themselves.

Cog, I presume like most of us you are a suburban or urban dweller. Isn't personal liberty and freedom as you are defining this more an abstract ideology. I imagine you don't grow your own food, cut down your own trees, have no real tangible trade skills etc. Like most of us you have an abstract relationship with your natural environment etc. and you thrive in todays world moving about in a man made ecosystem. This life you have creates a deep dependency that our 2nd amendment constitution loving forefathers would find deeply disturbing.

Modern technology creates therefore a dependency to the system far more deeper than any collectivist scenario that ties humans with their natural environments under a set of guidestones that promote sustainability.

Just food for thought
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 18:47:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'C')ould you live in the world they suggest?

1. MAINTAIN HUMANITY UNDER 500,000,000 IN PERPETUAL BALANCE WITH NATURE

2. GUIDE REPRODUCTION WISELY - IMPROVING FITNESS AND DIVERSITY

3. UNITE HUMANITY WITH A LIVING NEW LANGUAGE

4. RULE PASSION - FAITH - TRADITION - AND ALL THINGS WITH TEMPERED REASON

5. PROTECT PEOPLE AND NATIONS WITH FAIR LAWS AND JUST COURTS

6. LET ALL NATIONS RULE INTERNALLY RESOLVING EXTERNAL DISPUTES IN A WORLD COURT

7. AVOID PETTY LAWS AND USELESS OFFICIALS

8. BALANCE PERSONAL RIGHTS WITH SOCIAL DUTIES

9. PRIZE TRUTH - BEAUTY - LOVE- SEEKING HARMONY WITH THE INFINITE

10. BE NOT A CANCER ON THE EARTH -
LEAVE ROOM FOR NATURE - LEAVE ROOM FOR NATURE


Actually I think we could condense these GUIDES down a bit....to just three statements. I see the guides related in this fashion.

1. MAINTAIN HUMANITY UNDER 500,000,000 IN PERPETUAL BALANCE WITH NATURE. GUIDE REPRODUCTION WISELY - IMPROVING FITNESS AND DIVERSITY. PRIZE TRUTH - BEAUTY - LOVE- SEEKING HARMONY WITH THE INFINITE. BE NOT A CANCER ON THE EARTH - LEAVE ROOM FOR NATURE - LEAVE ROOM FOR NATURE.

2. UNITE HUMANITY WITH A LIVING NEW LANGUAGE

3. RULE PASSION - FAITH - TRADITION - AND ALL THINGS WITH TEMPERED REASON. PROTECT PEOPLE AND NATIONS WITH FAIR LAWS AND JUST COURTS. LET ALL NATIONS RULE INTERNALLY RESOLVING EXTERNAL DISPUTES IN A WORLD COURT. AVOID PETTY LAWS AND USELESS OFFICIALS. BALANCE PERSONAL RIGHTS WITH SOCIAL DUTIES
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Gsearch » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 18:57:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')We don't have to reach so far back to our HG ancestors to see the intelligence with which we interacted with our natural habitats. Let's look no further than say North America in the 19th century. Most citizens gained their lively hoods from agrarian or forestry of fisheries jobs. They lived in small communities. They had many obligations to their families and communities. The population was low enough that there were still vast areas of native habitats and the population level provided a good standard of living. Folks back then were deeply integrated with the organic bio regions where they lived and personal liberty back then had mostly to do with tangible skills and trades that enabled one to sustain themselves.



Oh yeah man it's not like that resulted in anything catastrophic or unsustainable...

*cough*American Bison extinction, various other animal extinctions, destruction of American Indian independence, was only possible through slavery, *cough*
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Gsearch » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 19:04:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')If the process is passive, I would agree. IIRC American Indians went through a similar process and codified sustainability into their spirituality and general life. But, for me, the problem with such an approach is that it tends to let us off the hook *now*. No need to look for genuinely sustainable practices in one's own life (including food, shelter etc), let's just wait for nature to take its toll.


Sutainability works in mysterious ways!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am ... _landscape
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby davep » Wed 21 Oct 2015, 03:54:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gsearch', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')If the process is passive, I would agree. IIRC American Indians went through a similar process and codified sustainability into their spirituality and general life. But, for me, the problem with such an approach is that it tends to let us off the hook *now*. No need to look for genuinely sustainable practices in one's own life (including food, shelter etc), let's just wait for nature to take its toll.


Sutainability works in mysterious ways!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am ... _landscape


That's exactly what I was referring to. It was husbandry that appeared to the untrained eye like pristine wilderness.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 21 Oct 2015, 07:29:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gsearch', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')If the process is passive, I would agree. IIRC American Indians went through a similar process and codified sustainability into their spirituality and general life. But, for me, the problem with such an approach is that it tends to let us off the hook *now*. No need to look for genuinely sustainable practices in one's own life (including food, shelter etc), let's just wait for nature to take its toll.


Sutainability works in mysterious ways!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am ... _landscape


That's exactly what I was referring to. It was husbandry that appeared to the untrained eye like pristine wilderness.


The issue is not how "pristine" and untouched by the human hand, the issue is that native cultures lived at low population densities and practiced this husbandry while maintaining their eco systems with high levels of biodiversity that was sustainable. A few extinctions of megafauna during the Pleistocene was the natural result of an apex predator crossing a geographic barrier. The same as when mountain lions crossed the land bridge into South America 3 million years ago. This was not wholesale conversion of natural ecosystems over to human landscapes.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby davep » Wed 21 Oct 2015, 09:08:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gsearch', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '
')If the process is passive, I would agree. IIRC American Indians went through a similar process and codified sustainability into their spirituality and general life. But, for me, the problem with such an approach is that it tends to let us off the hook *now*. No need to look for genuinely sustainable practices in one's own life (including food, shelter etc), let's just wait for nature to take its toll.


Sutainability works in mysterious ways!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am ... _landscape


That's exactly what I was referring to. It was husbandry that appeared to the untrained eye like pristine wilderness.


The issue is not how "pristine" and untouched by the human hand, the issue is that native cultures lived at low population densities and practiced this husbandry while maintaining their eco systems with high levels of biodiversity that was sustainable. A few extinctions of megafauna during the Pleistocene was the natural result of an apex predator crossing a geographic barrier. The same as when mountain lions crossed the land bridge into South America 3 million years ago. This was not wholesale conversion of natural ecosystems over to human landscapes.


I was referring to an "apparently" pristine ecosystem. The point seems to be that potentially having been through a crisis (with the loss of megafauna) the American Indians adapted their culture to a sustainable model. They didn't have the technology prior to that to destroy the ecosystems, so a transition to a more integrated lifestyle would be easier (albeit brutal in the short term). We may be violently agreeing here. I'm not sure if sustainable belief systems can ever come about spontaneously, but would tend to be the result of a crisis (whether local or broader-based).
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 21 Oct 2015, 09:31:59

So what was native Indian population in 1491? Somewhere between 15 and 30 million I think.

All population estimates I've seen for smaller areas (Newfoundland and cape Breton) are well under 10% of today's populations, which themselves are 10-20% of Pennsylvania population density.
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Re: Georgia Guidestones

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 21 Oct 2015, 10:44:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'S')o what was native Indian population in 1491? Somewhere between 15 and 30 million I think.

All population estimates I've seen for smaller areas (Newfoundland and cape Breton) are well under 10% of today's populations, which themselves are 10-20% of Pennsylvania population density.


After all your pro Newfoundland statements I read up on the island. I could be wrong but it seems likely to me that with a little luck and hard work the population could grow enough food to sustainably feed themselves without fishing to supplement their diet.
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