[onlooker]

Cog, Ibon is not attacking churches he is simply pointing out that churches have their set core of beliefs which are not open to being amendable. But of course with your indoctrinated and rigid right of the political spectrum views you can only spew disdain for any who would criticize your dogmatic points of view. You are exactly what some have in the last few posts described, one who is too polarizing a poster who attacks people rather then ideas as witnessed by what you just mentioned about Ibon.

[Cog]

Nope. Ibon is asking for restraint and to find common ground. How are you going to find common ground with a Christian if you come out with an attack on churches right off the bat? What common ground can I find with a person who immediately attacks my faith? I don't recall attacking his faith or lack thereof since it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If he is going to scold the members here for their lack of consensus building then he might want to look at his own behavior first.

[Newfie]

Just thought I'd repost Ibon's original words.

"It's getting old locked in polarity defending ones party, ones ideology, ones pet position. Not only old, its dumb. In the spirit of moving forward I suggest a new orientation.

In dialogue with others you look not to "win" an argument but rather to search for common ground. You assume that your position and party are valid but negotiable. If the other party is fixed and locked in you back away and break off the dialogue and do not feed the polarity. You can even say that you are not interested to debate who is right or wrong but are more interested in searching for common ground. You only continue the dialogue when you see a crack in the willingness to explore the complex nature of the topic instead of just defending tired old positions. "

If we all start to promote this new orientation we stop feeding the stupidity. We start getting mature. We start interacting intelligently.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ') This leaves the church for many as their main social outlet that is not corporate or big media. And the church has its own pimping agenda.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'C')og, Ibon is not attacking churches he is simply pointing out that churches have their set core of beliefs which are not open to being amendable. But of course with your indoctrinated and rigid right of the political spectrum views you can only spew disdain for any who would criticize your dogmatic points of view. You are exactly what some have in the last few posts described, one who is too polarizing a poster who attacks people rather then ideas as witnessed by what you just mentioned about Ibon.

[ralfy]

Peak oil, environmental damage, and other physical realities trump ideologies.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'P')eak oil, environmental damage, and other physical realities trump ideologies.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'P')eak oil, environmental damage, and other physical realities trump ideologies.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
They trump ideologies but even more important they will eventually drive ideologies as well.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
They trump ideologies but even more important they will eventually drive ideologies as well.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')Ground breaking would be too acknowledge that all people not just Christians can find salvation, that women are masters of their own destiny and body, that gays and lesbians are equal in the eyes of God to everyone else, that women can serve the Ministry, that contraceptive methods should not be forbidden and other statements that would be truly showing willingness to change and compromise.

[Ibon]

Back to the point of the OP, if you make an honest assessment of your cultural morals, opinions, politics etc. you surely have to recognize elements that have a tribal or "team" aspect. Some of the most common polarities

Politically Left vs Right
Conservative vs Liberal
Capitalist vs Socialist
Religious vs Atheist
Environmentalist vs Industrialist

If you find yourself instantly able to identify with exclusivity one or the other of these polarities than you are a good "team" player.

If on the other hand you find yourself with a somewhat confused ambiguity regarding where you stand then you are emerging as an adult, less dogmatic, more nuanced, more tolerant, more inclusive....... and perhaps with a tendency toward some confusing head scratching.

In order to not be confused you must choose to be a good team player, then the world is in order, your tribal alliance clear. And you can confidently be a parrot.

If you can handle throwing away the playbook and hang a bit in the confused state of being unsure then you can reap the reward of moving chameleon like among all the tribes. The walls of polarity that hold others in check mean nothing to you as you pass through them like a ghost.

[Newfie]

Or be hated by all and at home nowhere.

I get where you are going Ibon, and I appreciate your efforts.

I feel pretty strongly that the more nuanced is the better way.

Yet, it is not an easy path. You will not move like a chameleon unless you forgo discussing all important matters. You will end up only accepting the values pupfish whatever group you are with.

In my experience the nuanced path leads you between groups where you are at home nowhere. And for damn sure not on an Internet forum, which seems to be the home of chest beating righteousness by self styled silver backs.

You may be more successful, surely you have more patience than I. Just relating my experience.

[davep]

This cracks me up every time:

[Ibon]

That's a great cartoon.

[Newfie]

And appropriate.

[Cid_Yama]

So Cog's real name is Dick?

[onlooker]

I vote Cog. So much for our new orientation haha.