[hvacman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')here you go hvacman, Cid has pretty much made the case that I am an abhorrent human being not worthy of further social intercourse. In his world, I am a camp ground guard, wanting to commit genocide on everyone that I don't agree with. In my world, I want people to do that what they wish to do, without compulsion or government edict. That makes me some sort of monster to the left.

This is the stark contrast that we have on this board and on any board for that matter.

[Cog]

you extreme-right-winged-war-mongering-rich-loving-pollution-spewing-dope-grower-busting-woman-hating monster SOB


LOL Thanks. That was the most beautiful thing I have ever read. Seriously man, I take that in the spirit it was given and appreciate it.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', ' ')

In-person community meetings are totally different. When you sit in a room with 5, 20 or hundreds of your neighbors and try to come to consensus on various things, people tend to be a lot less extreme and more willing to take a position of accepting a consensus outcome that might not be, in their opinion, optimal.

[Cid_Yama]

Let me reiterate.

They are like the clerks who did the paperwork at the concentration camps. They didn't actual do anything to anyone. But they participated in mass genocide just the same.

YOU may not accept that premise, but only if you are personally in denial. You, like everyone else, will suffer the consequences. Whether you accept it or not.

At Nuremberg, the clerks swore that THEY HAD NO IDEA what was going on in the camps, they were just doing their job. They hung just the same.

Unfortunately, such justice will probably not take place this time around, other than the natural consequences of their actions.

I KNOW what they have done. The truth is the truth. Reality exists, this isn't some high school debate where the outcome doesn't matter.

AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TAKING A SURVEY AND THE TRUTH IS IN THE MIDDLE.

The truth is the truth. We are fucked. Man is dead by his own hand. Helped along by these morons.

Anyone that believes that a range of opinions divided in two can determine the truth is a fool.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', '
')Anyone that believes that a range of opinions divided in two can determine the truth is a fool.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'A')ND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TAKING A SURVEY AND THE TRUTH IS IN THE MIDDLE.

[Newfie]

Seems I agree with Cid, Plant, and Agent.

Civil discourse, putting forth ones arguments forcefully but respectfully, to sway opinion, to reach the truth.

Of course this presumes that each one of us here is able to LISTEN and consider as well as argue.

There is no shame in changing ones position, it just means that you are not to old to be educated nor too inflexible to adjust.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')t's getting old locked in polarity defending ones party, ones ideology, ones pet position. Not only old, its dumb. In the spirit of moving forward I suggest a new orientation.

In dialogue with others you look not to "win" an argument but rather to search for common ground. You assume that your position and party are valid but negotiable. If the other party is fixed and locked in you back away and break off the dialogue and do not feed the polarity. You can even say that you are not interested to debate who is right or wrong but are more interested in searching for common ground. You only continue the dialogue when you see a crack in the willingness to explore the complex nature of the topic instead of just defending tired old positions.

If we all start to promote this new orientation we stop feeding the stupidity. We start getting mature. We start interacting intelligently.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
So the new orientation IMO is to return to the organic view of the world. Recognize that just because a politician or political party promises to do A for you they will also do B through Z to you without mentioning it much in public because they know you won't like those things. So long as 'single issue voters' swing elections over a few pretty words you are left with a bifurcated process tree that claims everything that Party A promises will be rainbows and sunshine while claiming everything party B promises will lead to thunderstorms and tornadoes.

[Cid_Yama]

Yuck. I just started watching The Philadelphia Story for the umpteenth time. Katharine Hepburn is about to marry this middle class male gold digger. He's not ... Real. He doesn't live in the moment, doesn't respond spontaneously. Wants fame, publicity. So blah. Doesn't understand that that is the last thing you want.

Perhaps it's class related. My wife grew up poor. When she was young she didn't have the things other's had.

She, for years, hated Christmas. She was like the sketch the Old Newsboys Detroit Goodfellow's fund used in their Christmas Charity Drive. The little girl in the patched nightgown sitting at the table crying with the empty stocking. I searched and couldn't find a picture of it. I can't believe they still don't use it.

It left her hungry. It makes me actually to tears thinking about it.

It leaves them broken in a way that is hard to fix.

Now she has everything, but having it doesn't fix it.

Sure, over the years she has gotten happier, I've brought her into the light, but still there is something from her early experiences you just can't erase.

I think that explains a lot of the people on here. They see it as, we had it and now that they are about to have it, we are telling them they have to stop.

Actually it's too late, so it doesn't matter. But it seems that that is the emotion behind the denial. That we must be lying, just to keep them from having it too.

[onlooker]

I find myself torn between the position articulated here of compromise but also a more considered position of having a firm stance. I think we humans can hardly ever separate morality from any issues we may contemplate. Compromise is the sign of a mature, wise and accomplished thinker and vice-versa. On the other hand, some things cannot be compromised as they are the foundation source of one's morality and integrity. If Cid argues that their is no compromise with right wingers and corporate apologists it is because he recognizes that their whole structure and messages have led us to the brink. So that is his moral stance that refuses to budge. I happen to side with that. People can debate and agree and find a conciliatory consensus or compromise. Yet should we not find loathsome those who would defend murder or lying and cheating. How can one compromise or find middle ground on such morally reprehensible positions? So in summary compromise is good in general as it furthers the process of finding the best solutions for the greatest amount of people but only if one need not compromise ones ideals relative to ethics and morality. Of course the religious zealot would say the same yet I would defend his/her right to do so though not necessarily agreeing.

[Newfie]

I don't think it's about compromise. It's about putting forward your position with respect, in a mature manner. But also it is about listening, being open to persuasion.

Or briefly, it's hard to listen when you are shouting.

[onlooker]

Cid, I think we should separate those who cannot or do not wish to see the realities of the world we currently live in from those engaged actively in trying to maintain the status quo, though some would say we all are either by consuming as we do or by continuing to populate the world. Yet I would not qualify that as directly supporting the status quo more like indirectly. I think Cid directs his disdain for those who directly prop up the system such as the politicians, corporate executives/owners, media owners, stock holders, and of course the most powerful and rich people in the world. Also, include those who work for these very corrupt institutions ,organizations and people. They are directly participating in maintaining this insane path we are on. So Cid cannot compromise with them as long as they continue to do what they do. I find his position is the essentially one of integrity. Just like one cannot compromise with someone holding a gun to your head because they have all the power. One should be not forced to abdicate ones creed for the sake of agreement with others. That in itself is a moral decision to not forsake ones principles. So ask me to change in what I do and even think but do not ask me to change in what I believe in. I did not always think this way but I do now after I guess some soul searching. Some would say it should be the opposite, be able and willing to change ones beliefs. Yes beliefs but not what I believe in.

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'W')ell, that kumbaya moment didn't last long

I think it's very optimistic to assume that any kind of new orientation would be possible in an online, anonymous forum. Our local online forums are the same way with people just trying to one up the other and who knows who is a 13 year old kid just causing trouble for fun.

In-person community meetings are totally different. When you sit in a room with 5, 20 or hundreds of your neighbors and try to come to consensus on various things, people tend to be a lot less extreme and more willing to take a position of accepting a consensus outcome that might not be, in their opinion, optimal.

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'A')ND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TAKING A SURVEY AND THE TRUTH IS IN THE MIDDLE.

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'C')alifornia is a trend leader in the USA. Always has been. Looks at whats happened in California over the last 20 years----the whole US is going to go the way of California over the next 20 years.

California is now a "majority minority" state, thanks to the rapid growth in the number of Hispanics. Hispanics vote strongly democratic. As a result Ds dominate the state----every California statewide office is held by a D, the state legislature has a supermajority of Ds, both Senators are Ds, and a large majority of the Congresscritters are Ds.

California has achieved consensus---they're almost all Ds.

Demographics is destiny---the same thing is going to happen across the US. Hispanic populations are growing rapidly across the US while the population of European-Americans is stable or even slightly declining. The result will be a growing majority of D voters and a permanent shift to D majorities and D control of more and more states and eventual permanent D control of the Congress and Presidency. When Texas flips to a hispanic majority, and politically flips from R to D, the Rs will never win another presidency. That will happen very soon----and then more and more states will inevitably follow the pattern set by California and Texas.

Then we'll all live in high-tax D states whether we like it or not. Then we will have the consensus that some people want so much..

Be careful what you wish for

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
Then we'll all live in high-tax D states whether we like it or not. Then we will have the consensus that some people want so much..

Be careful what you wish for

[Quinny]

I sympathise with Cid, but still subscribe to the philosophy criticise the idea / action not the person.

Jeremy Corbyn is changing British Politics by refusing to lower himself to the Tories level and asking his supporters to distance themselves from personal attacks.

When it was revealed in a book by a former supporter that Prime Minister David Cameron engaged in a disgusting sex act with a dead pigs head as part of a bizarre initiation ceremony, Corbyn refused to mention it.

The problem we have is that the establishment is waging a class war against the rest of us but they control the media and the minds of many of the electorate. Overcoming this is so frustrating we categorise people when we should be trying to win them over.

The clerk who signed the papers is culpable, but fear is a powerful driver and there are also shades of grey. What about a manufacturer who employed concentration camp workers, but tried to make life as good for them as possible?

Even though I still hold by the principle of criticise the idea / action, it does seem that some people become so full of bile and rhetoric that it's virtually impossible to distinguish between them and their ideas. They also demonstrate their ignorance by basing their ideas on opinions rather than critical thought. This is a forum though and not 'real' life, so rules can be bent

Looking at it from a recipients point of view and anecdotally as regards to PO, we have Agent on here who I disagree with completely on most issues and certainly from a political point of view. I do however listen to him because he puts forward a reasoned argument albeit from his right wing nationalistic point of view. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't listen so he does in some-way influence me. Others of the same bent who just rant have absolutely no influence whatsoever.

I think Ibon has a point, take look at Corbyn's new kind of politics and how the young are embracing it. The Labour Party has recruited more new members since the General election than the total membership of the Tory party!

[Ibon]

One big problem I see is the lack of local social networks in the population. Too many people are tapping into big media or the internet as a main part of their cultural and political identity and ideology. This is massive and impersonal and driven by interests that are corporate in nature. The other main social identity for most people is from their work place. This social environment is driven by the primary activity of the world of commerce if it be the private sector. The world of commerce breeds a superficial social identity, there is nothing really lasting or profound about the social life in the work place where everyone is playing lip service to towing the line for the company. If you are in the public sector then you are deep in the deadening bureaucracy and this creates a resigned and hopeless cynicism.

So then a patented response is to spend more time promoting your local community. But what if there is none? Local communities have been atrophying for decades. Are there active 4H clubs in your neighborhood for example? This leaves the church for many as their main social outlet that is not corporate or big media. And the church has its own pimping agenda.

One of the ways to break the polarity is to deeply understand the flawed nature of the social fabric as outlined above. To be polarized by definition means you are buying into a broken and flawed system regardless of which end of the spectrum you are on. So this really means a great big shift in thinking seeing your adversary in the same incompetent pot of soup that you are also floating in.

Solutions? I can only see one at the moment. Service. In a general way, humble yourself to seeing all your brethren as culturally handicapped by the system regardless of where they congregate in their polarity. And enrich your social life in ways that serve others. Start from the simplest place. Go volunteer somewhere.

From a humble position of service you can germinate ideas that depart from the mainstream and start to rebuild an identity on a local level. This is the core definition of grass roots.

We had a few volunteers coming to stay with us. One of them helped us set up a hydroponic growing operation for vegetables. This lead to further research here in the local community. Others came to help out. This is the kind of stuff that builds a new identity. Just one tiny example. There are thousands of ways to express this. It is so much more interesting a life than just parroting the big systems dysfunctional diatribes you hear on big media or the internet.

My big problem with the internet is that it becomes the driver of cultural identity. An ideal internet would be a million small grass roots activities would link together with the web to strengthen the local efforts. But what we often see instead is that the venue of the internet itself starts to mold the culture into identities that are socially isolating. The polarized and often cynical and hateful way we communicate hiding behind our cyber identity.

I joined this facebook page Planet Bromeliad. Everyone all around the world sharing information and photos about this fascinating family of plants. A great little site. I find this a great application for the web for example. PO.com has a bit of a small community feel to it and if you come across as too polarized to the point you start to troll you are quickly called out by other posters and or moderated. I think this is our greatest appeal here, that we have folks across the political spectrum who can be heard. What Quinny said about reading and respecting what Agent posts.

Anyway, got to go outside to organic reality and work on a carpentry project. A bit of a ramble on a Sunday morning. Have a nice day everyone where ever you are.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ') This leaves the church for many as their main social outlet that is not corporate or big media. And the church has its own pimping agenda.