what about plastics?

by **thequietkid10** » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 23:39:35

I was reading an MSNBC article about Peak Oil. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3403854/

In it he mentioned the Peak Oil doomsday crowd, and he offered a sample, arguement.

This arguement mentioned that fuel cells and solar panels are made of plastics, which come from oil.

Can't we produce plastics (perhaps a lot less, but still some) with bio oils?

by **EnergySpin** » Fri 01 Jul 2005, 23:54:48

Yes we can ... you need lot's of energy though and energy is the issue

by **UIUCstudent01** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 00:03:05

To my understanding, yes.

You can create it out of orange peels and even possibly even hemp.

I'm not sure you can create solar panels out of it though.. not sure what exactly is needed for manufacture of solar panels.

by **0mar** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 00:10:35

Anything that has carbon in it has the potential to be chemically modified into plastic. It's just a question of yield, speed and energy.

by **savethehumans** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 01:11:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou can create it out of orange peels and possibly even hemp.

by **Devil** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 05:24:48

Let's have a quick glance at what plastics are. There are two very broad classes, thermoplastics and thermosetting. Thermoplastics are the recyclable types, being largely linear polymers. If we take a simple organic compound, such as ethylene, and stitch the molecules together into a long chain, you get polyethylene. These are the easy cases, the first ones being cellulosic (celluloid, cellophane, rayon). Thermosetting ones consist mostly of linear prepolymers of cyclic molecules, where the chains are cross-linked into a three-dimensional polymer. These generally cannot melt. A common example is the epoxy resins, adhesives, also polyurethanes. Early ones included Bakelite (phenol formaldehyde, urea formaldehyde). The chemistry of these is much more complex.

So, yes, we can make plastics like cellulose acetate out of wood, hemp, almost any veggie matter. To make the more useful ones is more complex but the petrochemical industry (which uses only a tiny fraction of the crude oil produced today) could adapt to using other starting blocks, but the cost of the plastics would rise humengously.

by **JohnDenver** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 05:34:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devil', 'T')o make the more useful ones is more complex but the petrochemical industry (which uses only a tiny fraction of the crude oil produced today) could adapt to using other starting blocks, but the cost of the plastics would rise humengously.

by **Devil** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 07:59:06

Cannot say. I should imagine the simple linear polymers possibly only about 50% but the complex ones may be much more, perhaps even 500%. This is theoretical because I doubt whether anyone has even designed the plant, let alone do the costing calculations.

I think the petrochemical industry would be the last to change away from petroleum, if ever. The capital investment on the plant to produce the feedstocks for, e.g., olefines, is so high that it would almost be unimaginable to move away from petroleum. I used to visit the ICI polyolefines plant in Wilton, N. Yorkshire., on business. The plant was about 10 times bigger than the massive refinery next door to it.

by **Permanently_Baffled** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 08:31:06

Hey Devil,

I know I should know the answer to this but, how exactly is plastic recycled? Do they just melt it and remould it?

The reason ask is , spend a lot of time making sure I recycle just about everything from my domestic waste (just trying to do my bit

), and I was just wondering what the recyclers do with it? Is there any restrictions to what they can make from the recycled plastic/card/tin/aluminium etc? Does the recycled material need anything adding to it?

If its a long process then send me a web link and I will read up

Oh and another dumb question , we are told that plastic eventually breaksdown in landfill. But what does it breakdown into? Does plastic eventually breakdown into mud/soil or a toxic sludge? :lol:

PB

by **killJOY** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 08:49:47

What happens if plastics get burned and the ash ends up in the soil?

Sometimes plastics (usually in the form of laminated paper products) get burned in my wood stove, and the ash gets put in the gardens.

by **Devil** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 09:34:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'H')ey Devil,

I know I should know the answer to this but, how exactly is plastic recycled? Do they just melt it and remould it?

by **Permanently_Baffled** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 12:06:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devil', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'H')ey Devil,

I know I should know the answer to this but, how exactly is plastic recycled? Do they just melt it and remould it?

by **big_rc** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 16:55:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', '
')Oh and another dumb question , we are told that plastic eventually breaksdown in landfill. But what does it breakdown into? Does plastic eventually breakdown into mud/soil or a toxic sludge? :lol:

PB

by **Permanently_Baffled** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 16:57:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big_rc', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', '
')Oh and another dumb question , we are told that plastic eventually breaksdown in landfill. But what does it breakdown into? Does plastic eventually breakdown into mud/soil or a toxic sludge? :lol:

PB

by **big_rc** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 17:13:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'A')re these plasticizers made from oil?

PB

by **Permanently_Baffled** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 17:16:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big_rc', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'A')re these plasticizers made from oil?

PB

by **ozonehole** » Sat 02 Jul 2005, 21:22:36

I long ago came to the conclusion that we shouldn't be burning oil at all. We should use it to make plastics, nylon and other synthetics. To burn oil for powering cars is like burning dollar bills to keep your house warm. A precious resource like oil should be used wisely. Sadly, throughout humanity's history, wisdom has been in short supply.

by **Frontierenergy1** » Sun 03 Jul 2005, 10:58:09

George Washington Carver developed plastics from soybeans long ago. He even developed a soybean plastic auto body for Henry Ford. Try googling George Washington Carver soybean plastic

by **big_rc** » Mon 04 Jul 2005, 18:28:11

There is an understandably common misconception that all plastics are interchangable. Therefore all we have to do is convert most of the plastics that we currently use to "bio-plastics" and everything will be wonderful. That is very, very far from the truth.

First of all, the polymers which are at the heart of most plastics are many times not interchangable because they have very distinct material characteristics. Many of the "bio-plastics" are just plain inferior from a property perspective when compared against traditional plastics. In order to make them either stronger, stiffer or tougher, you need to add stuff (e.g., plasticizers, crosslinkers, etc.) to the bio-polymers which then creates another problem. The problem is that all of this stuff renders your wonderful bioplastic not very environmentally friendly (and also more expensive) when compared with your standard petroleum plastics. So sorry to burst people's bioplastic bubble but for alot of reasons (including the stuff above) it will be a cold day in hell before we start using plastics made from plants on a widespread basis.

what about plastics?

what about plastics?

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