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American Collective Blindness - Charleston

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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 24 Jun 2015, 19:59:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'F')t. Hood shooter – Registered Democrat – Muslim
Columbine shooters – Too young to vote but both families were registered Democrats and progressive liberals.
Virginia Tech shooter – Registered Democrat – Wrote hate mail to President Bush and to his staff.
Colorado Theater shooter – Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.
Connecticut School Shooter – Registered Democrat; hated Christians.
Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.

Since 911, domestic radicals deadlier in US than Jihadis
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven excluding the Charleston massacre, white supremacists and their like are way ahead of Muslim extremists, reports The New York Times.
Image
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The methodology excludes Sandy Hook and other killings deemed non-ideological.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 24 Jun 2015, 22:10:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'F')t. Hood shooter – Registered Democrat – Muslim
Columbine shooters – Too young to vote but both families were registered Democrats and progressive liberals.
Virginia Tech shooter – Registered Democrat – Wrote hate mail to President Bush and to his staff.
Colorado Theater shooter – Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.
Connecticut School Shooter – Registered Democrat; hated Christians.
Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.

Since 911, domestic radicals deadlier in US than Jihadis
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven excluding the Charleston massacre, white supremacists and their like are way ahead of Muslim extremists, reports The New York Times.
Image
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The methodology excludes Sandy Hook and other killings deemed non-ideological.


Gee I am sure all those people killed for 'non-ideological' reasons were determined in a fair and reasonable manner. Where do people killed by plain old average street criminals fit in the picture? Do they not count simply because they are often the same race as their attackers? All lives matter, how hard is that concept to understand?
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 24 Jun 2015, 23:37:05

Confederate flag backlash has gone too far.

I was watching morning joe and joe scarborogh was talking about how ebay has banned any confederate items yet it sells all manner of nazi things.

Ebay banning it is going too far, that's an antique and collectables marketplace. Walmart and kmart and target, that's different.

And now this is in the news:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said.

Fellow anchor Don Lemon responded by saying Jefferson represented "the entire United States, not just the South." But he added: "There may come a day when we want to rethink Jefferson. I don't know if we should do that."

Their comments have been picked up by conservative news sites and blogs. On Infowars, blogger Paul Joseph Watson compared taking down the Jefferson Memorial to the logic of Islamic State terrorists "who have spent the last year tearing down historical statues and monuments because they offend their radical belief system."

Jefferson owned slaves and had children with one of them, Sally Hemings, who is believed to have been a teenager when she first gave birth. Several other presidents including George Washington, Andrew Jackson and James Madison also owned slaves.

At the University of Texas, Austin, a public statue of Jefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy, was reportedly vandalized this week with the words "Black Lives Matter" and "Bump the Chumps." Another Davis statue at the Statehouse in Frankfort, Ky., has come under scrutiny, with some calling for the work of art to be taken down.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html


Ok, now all of that is going TOO far.

You really cannot judge the past, through the prism of today. Because we are where we are at today, is after having evolved from that previous place in the past.

It's like with the British Empire or the Catholic Church. They can't just erase all their history, because there were some horrible things as a part of it.

Now this is ridiculous, nobody should be taking down statues of Robert E. Lee:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu calls for removal of Lee Circle statue
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/06/lee_circle_statue_robert_e_lee.html


Jim Webb had a good statement about it:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is an emotional time and we all need to think through these issues with a care that recognizes the need for change but also respects the complicated history of the Civil War. The Confederate Battle Flag has wrongly been used for racist and other purposes in recent decades. It should not be used in any way as a political symbol that divides us.

But we should also remember that honorable Americans fought on both sides in the Civil War, including slave holders in the Union Army from states such as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware, and that many non-slave holders fought for the South.

It was in recognition of the character of soldiers on both sides that the federal government authorized the construction of the Confederate Memorial 100 years ago, on the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery.

This is a time for us to come together, and to recognize once more that our complex multicultural society is founded on the principle of mutual respect.
https://www.facebook.com/IHeardMyCountryCalling/posts/368319080024684


Other articles out there, talking about what happens to confederate historical sites.

Now see, this would just all be wrong. You don't wipe history away like that. I've got a plantation museum in my town, it's harmless. It just is what it is, they tell the whole story. And then you just learn about the pioneer days and such, and the history.

Things are just complicated, you can't put the prism of today on 200 or 300 years ago.

There are monuments to christopher columbus too, and the spanish conquistadors. The latter of which were responsible for genocide of the native peoples in the america, and were generally pretty horrible people. All you can do is tell BOTH sides, it's a difficult history then entire world has.

Same with all of American history, and manifest destiny, and westward expansion, and the darn iraq war for that matter. What's next, will people demand the w bush library be taken down?
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 24 Jun 2015, 23:59:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Subjectivist', 'G')ee I am sure all those people killed for 'non-ideological' reasons were determined in a fair and reasonable manner. Where do people killed by plain old average street criminals fit in the picture? Do they not count simply because they are often the same race as their attackers? All lives matter, how hard is that concept to understand?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he New America Foundation International Security Program dataset of homegrown extremists seeks to provide as much information as possible about American citizens and permanent residents engaged in violent extremist activity as well as individuals, regardless of their citizenship status, living within the United States who have engaged in violent extremist activity.

The dataset has been widely cited. Most recently it formed the basis for the Bipartisan Policy Center’s 2013 report Jihadist Terrorism: A Threat Assesment‘s examination of homegrown extremism, a follow up to a 2010 assessment that used an earlier version of the dataset.

The dataset was originally a collaboration between the New America Foundation’s National Security Studies Program and Syracuse University’s Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs. It underwent a full review, update, and expansion in 2013. The review was undertaken by Jennifer Rowland, a Program Associate with the New America Foundation, and David Sterman, a Master’s Candidate at Georgetown’s Center for Security Studies, working together with Peter Bergen.

The dataset seeks to include all American citizens and residents indicted or convicted for terrorism crimes who were inspired by or associated with Al Qaeda and its affiliated groups as well as those citizens and residents who were killed before they could be indicted but have been widely reported to have worked with or been inspired by al-Qaeda and its affiliated groups. The dataset does not include extremists tied to violent Islamist groups that do not target the United States as part of al-Qaeda’s war, for example Hamas and Hezbollah, nor does it include individuals who were acquitted or charged with lesser crimes, for example immigration violations, that cannot be shown to involve some kind of terrorism-related crime.

The dataset also includes individuals inspired by right wing, left wing, and other non-Jihadist political ideologies, who have been indicted for terrorism related crimes. The data on non-Jihadist extremists is less developed than the data on Jihadist extremists but where available it is included to provide a comparison across ideologies. The dataset relies mainly upon court documents, wire service reports, and news reports as sources.

We recognize that extremism is a subjective term and that the First Amendment protects the right to hold extreme political views. Our dataset takes no stance on whether particular ideologies are extreme but focuses on violent extremism understood as the use of violence in pursuit of any political ideology whether that ideology is considered mainstream in the United States or not.
http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extr ... ology.html
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 05:49:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'F')t. Hood shooter – Registered Democrat – Muslim
Columbine shooters – Too young to vote but both families were registered Democrats and progressive liberals.
Virginia Tech shooter – Registered Democrat – Wrote hate mail to President Bush and to his staff.
Colorado Theater shooter – Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.
Connecticut School Shooter – Registered Democrat; hated Christians.
Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.

Since 911, domestic radicals deadlier in US than Jihadis
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven excluding the Charleston massacre, white supremacists and their like are way ahead of Muslim extremists, reports The New York Times.
Image
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The methodology excludes Sandy Hook and other killings deemed non-ideological.


....you should add the 3000+ lives ended by the jihadists on 9/11/2001. Definately ideological, radical Muslim killers.

The jihadists are way ahead....
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Lore » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 08:41:49

Mere pikers, you forget the Iraqi deaths in the hundreds of thousands caused by the U.S. invasion.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 10:10:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Then, 99% populist left wing anger. And eco activists, so much anger, so much militancy, so toxic -- which is what I touched on earlier in this thread, especially about the internet, just how TOXIC the discussions can get. Nobody wants to seem wrong about anything. Everyone's afraid of being wrong, apparently. Everyone's afraid of "slippery slopes" and they're absolutist and can't ever give an inch to the other side.

The thing about the anti-GMO / vegan / gun confiscation crowd is that it's all the same people who look more numerous than they are because they just never shut up and they are in a continuous state of outrage over a different issue every day of the week. For what seems like every hundred of them, there are probably really five people.

There's lots of good psychology about that describing this fake morality, and everyone says that when you get down far enough to the people that are generally useless there is much yammering about "justice." Not for themselves, but supposedly for Indian farmers or other total strangers who would think these social justice warriors are fruitcakes. It has to be "justice" in a very abstract sense so they'll never have to do anything except scream at people who really don't care.


Sometimes Preston you really get at the heart of the matter and make good point. Well done.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 25 Jun 2015, 12:32:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '.')..you should add the 3000+ lives ended by the jihadists on 9/11/2001. Definately ideological, radical Muslim killers.

The jihadists are way ahead....
The study is about "home grown" terrorists since 2002. It's not clear to me whether the 9/11 Saudis would have qualified as "home grown" according to the study methodology (which I quoted above).
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 Jun 2015, 18:40:24

Here's a couple of typical racist Democrats for you:

Image
1992 Clinton Gore Presidential Campaign button.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 27 Jun 2015, 00:06:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '
')There's lots of good psychology about that describing this fake morality, and everyone says that when you get down far enough to the people that are generally useless there is much yammering about "justice." Not for themselves, but supposedly for Indian farmers or other total strangers who would think these social justice warriors are fruitcakes. It has to be "justice" in a very abstract sense so they'll never have to do anything except scream at people who really don't care.

Sometimes Preston you really get at the heart of the matter and make good point. Well done.
Thanks, but keep in mind many of these people are mirror images of the Tea Party, and I've often suggested that these people from opposite ends of the political spectrum all need to go to a cheap motel for some angry grudge sex.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 27 Jun 2015, 00:19:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'E')ven excluding the Charleston massacre, white supremacists and their like are way ahead of Muslim extremists, reports The New York Times.
Image
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The methodology excludes Sandy Hook and other killings deemed non-ideological.


And non-jihadists extremeists have been at it forever, so they hardly started a zero. Do they count the Sovereign Citizens? They are notorious ambushing cops, and killing about two dozen cops since 1990. But I don't know if they are explicitly white supremacist, although they are antigovernment terrorists and they seem to be very white. And what about the two douchemozzles that left the Bundy ranch and executed two cops? Again, not explicitly white supremacist, just white and antigovernment and probably paling around with racists.

Also, there are many cases where white supremacists kill people in nonterrorist acts like robberies and home invasions. They also seem to kill each other pretty frequently, like the group of young vets in GA and numerous other cases where they kill one of their own for hardly any rational reason. It just seems like they are disagreeable and violently paranoid even to each other. Who would have guessed? Meth probably accounts for a lot of that.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 27 Jun 2015, 12:31:06

With the Supreme Court rulings on Obamacare and gay marriage, this would be a good day to browse pretty much any conservative blog to see people fantasizing about war, genocide, death squads, terrorism, assassinations etc. It takes less than 20 seconds to find this stuff. Dylann Roof's head seemed to be packed with this garbage.

Someone once said that a liberal may make you angry, confused, or waste your time, but a conservative thinks it's his god-given right to kill you for disagreeing and that he deserves a medal if he does.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 27 Jun 2015, 14:53:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')s there any history since the internet has been around about American forum posters going postal? I can recall the Unabomber was somewhat of a lobbyist before switching to actual terrorism to male his points. Brevik isn't American. Apparently the general form of American mass murderers is of very poor communication ability, mental health issues. Us intellects capable of hashing out arguments on a forum like this are not the same people doing the killing. Unless what a poster says is provocative to evil, how polite or otherwise posters are is irrelavent to this issue.

I tend to suspect people that are very polite have hitchhikers buried under their house.

But that's understandable. After all, being very polite means constantly repressing one's emotions. Then some hitchhiker gets dirt on one's (expensive and pretty) car seat, and all that bottled up repression comes boiling out and...

Unfortunately, the blood is harder to get out than the smudges.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 28 Jun 2015, 11:11:22

About "being nice" --

Lawn service broke my window the other day. Their mower threw a steak up and went right through, basketball sized hole.

So I find the guy on the mower, then I get on the phone with the owner of the business.

Long story short, she just kept saying how nice I was. And that most people would be cussing at her and yelling and screaming. Meanwhile, I'm just so relieved that she is so nice and being a great business owner and she got a repair guy out right away and all that. And she took total ownership of the problem, and responsibility.

So I'm thanking her for being so nice and helpful, and she's thanking me five times more for being so nice. And I'm just thinking -- is everyone else really so horrible?

Not sure if this was an interesting story or not, but it's a true one.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 16:17:19

No ‘Je Suis Charleston’?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here are the international marches of solidarity with African Americans? The statements from world leaders condemning the terrorist attack and calling on U.S. Authorities to crack down on the white nationalist terror networks developing in the U.S.? Where are the marches in white communities condemning racism and standing with black people? Why no ‘Je Suis Charleston’?
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There is another element of this story that compelled the Administration to get out in front of this issue. Obama needed to draw attention away from the fact that his Administration caved under the pressure from the “respectable” racist right-wingers in Congress who criticized the DHS report in 2009.

John Boehner, the leader of the House of Representatives, characterized the report as “Offensive and unacceptable.” According to Boehner, the Obama Administration should not be condemning “American citizens who disagree with the direction Washington Democrats are taking our nation.”

Instead of defending Secretary Napolitano and the report issued by her Department, or taking the opportunity provided by the report to educate the public on this internal threat, Obama threw Napolitano under the bus and the DHS pulled the report from its website. The unit responsible for monitoring white supremacist organizations and movements was dismantled, and the threat of white supremacist violence becoming the victim of Washington politics.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 16:39:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'A')bout "being nice" --

Lawn service broke my window the other day. Their mower threw a steak up and went right through, basketball sized hole.

So I find the guy on the mower, then I get on the phone with the owner of the business.

Long story short, she just kept saying how nice I was. And that most people would be cussing at her and yelling and screaming. Meanwhile, I'm just so relieved that she is so nice and being a great business owner and she got a repair guy out right away and all that. And she took total ownership of the problem, and responsibility.

So I'm thanking her for being so nice and helpful, and she's thanking me five times more for being so nice. And I'm just thinking -- is everyone else really so horrible?

Not sure if this was an interesting story or not, but it's a true one.

A lot of individuals are not nice in this circumstance. I suspect having to confront an issue (like a broken window, etc) stresses them out. I know it did me before about age 30 -- I didn't yell or curse, but I didn't like dealing with problems. I think it was being raised in a hyper-critical home environment (passed down from previous generations).

The thing is, in my experience, being nice will get you the best outcome with the least stress about 99% of the time, so I'm surprised more people don't use that as the "default" setting when things go wrong. And with businesses, since a rational business wants to do future business -- not meeting niceness with reasonableness is completely irrational (if you politely escalate to the boss, if needed).

About the only time being nice isn't good is in a real emergency/danger situation (it may be too slow). That's the only time I yell at kids, for example -- when they might fall down stairs, get run over by a car, etc.

Six, I don't think what you describe (customers not being nice) is all that unusual. Various times over the years, I have had to say to one of my friends (who was raising their voice due to a service problem) -- "X, it's not his/her fault this occurred" to get them to "wake up" and simply state their concern/problem in a normal tone of voice (nicely), whereupon it got resolved.

(Imagine how much easier the police would have things if the default were people being nice!)
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 18:04:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'E')ven excluding the Charleston massacre, white supremacists and their like are way ahead of Muslim extremists, reports The New York Times.
Image
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims


KJ is right. Why start the chart in 2002? Why exclude the 2000+ Americans killed by Muslim extremists on Sept. 11, 2001?

There is no reason to exclude the 2000+Americans killed by Muslim extremists from this kind of plot except to create a false impression that white supremacists kill more people then Muslim supremacists.

And even if you leave off the 2000 people killed on 9/11, the chart is BS because it ignores the thousands of American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sheesh---what is wrong with you. Don't soldiers count as Americans too?

When you add in the 6000+ US soldiers killed by Islamist radicals with the 2000+ Americans killed by Islamist radicals on 9/11, you've 8000 people killed----thats 160 times more (160X) then then number killed by white supremacists.

Do the math.
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 19:45:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'W')hy start the chart in 2002
Why not go back 150 years and include the victims of the KKK terrorists?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', ' ')the chart is BS because it ignores the thousands of American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sheesh---what is wrong with you. Don't soldiers count as Americans too?

When you add in the 6000+ US soldiers killed by Islamist radicals
As I pointed out above, the study is about HOME GROWN TERRORISTS.

Get it now?
(Tens of thousands of innocent people killed by US soldiers and mercenaries are also not included in the study criteria).
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 22:56:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'A')s I pointed out above, the study is about HOME GROWN TERRORISTS.

Get it now?


You don't know what you are talking about. Please try to get your facts straight.

The Boston bombers weren't "home-grown" ----they were born in the Russian Caucasus region and Tamerlan---the so-called mastermind of the terror attack---was mostly raised and educated in Russia and he travelled back to Russia a few years before the Boston Attack and interacted with Muslim terrorists there. The ideological rationale for their terror attack came from their contacts with foreign terrorists, as did the instructions on how to make pressure cooker bombs.

Your claim that the so-called study only considers "HOME GROWN TERRORISTS" just isn't true.

Get it now?
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Re: American Collective Blindness - Charleston

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Jul 2015, 23:35:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he Boston bombers weren't "home-grown" ----they were born in the Russian Caucasus region and Tamerlan---the so-called mastermind of the terror attack---was mostly raised and educated in Russia and he travelled back to Russia a few years before the Boston Attack and interacted with Muslim terrorists there. The ideological rationale for their terror attack came from their contacts with foreign terrorists, as did the instructions on how to make pressure cooker bombs.

Your claim that the so-called study only considers "HOME GROWN TERRORISTS" just isn't true.

Get it now?
It's not my claim. They explain their criteria and how they apply them.

If you don't count the Boston bombers as "home grown" then the ratio of home grown white racist terrorists to home grown Islamic terrorists is even higher.
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