[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yellowcanoe', 'B')us driver salaries are just a small part of what I see as a growing discrepancy between public sector and private sector compensation.

[yellowcanoe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yellowcanoe', 'B')us driver salaries are just a small part of what I see as a growing discrepancy between public sector and private sector compensation.

[Pops]

I like charts, here are 2






Make it 3




Maybe 4, this one is good too:




Correlation is not causation and yadda yadda, but ...
.

[Plantagenet]

Great charts, Pops.

I'm surprised to see that union membership in the US peaked in the late 1950s and has been declining for the last five and half decades now. I would've guessed that union membership started declining after Reagan busted the PATCO union in the 80s or after Clinton signed the NAFTA agreement so that US manufacturing could move their manufacturing plants to Mexico in the 90s, but its clearly a much longer term problem.

Your chart suggests the decline in union membership has been going on for half a century. It must somehow be systemic, rather then result of any individual law or policy from the government.

[yellowcanoe]

If we are to look at charts of unionization rates it really would be helpful to differentiate between public and private sector unionization. Unions are still doing very well in the public sector because they are effective in retaining good salaries and benefits for their members. At the university where I work everyone who is employed full time is unionized and even students who have various types of temporary employment with the university are either already unionized or trying to become unionized. It's an entirely different story in the private sector where unions have been largely ineffective in dealing with globalization. Case in point would be the General Motors EMD Locomotive plant in London, Ontario. When GM got into big trouble a few years back and had to be bailed out by various governments, one of the things they did was sell their EMD division to Caterpillar. When the union contract at the plant in London expired, Caterpillar demanded that the employees take a salary cut which for some employees would have been as much as 50%. The union declined to accept that offer but they stayed on the job instead of going on strike. Caterpillar then locked out all the employees and a few weeks later announced that they were closing the plant and moving all the work to a new plant they had in Indiana. That's the stark reality many private sector unions face -- when the corporation asks for salary concessions the union can either cave in or everyone loses their job. Some private sector workers may be better off if their work cannot be relocated elsewhere, for example nickel miners in Sudbury. But even here globalization has an impact. Nickel workers used to work for INCO, a Canadian company, and if they went on strike INCO lost a significant amount of their nickel production. But now INCO is just part of Vale, a large mining conglomorate that has a lot of nickel mines around the world. The ability of the miners to retain their benefits has been negatively impacted and they were forced to make concessions to Vale after a strike that lasted almost a full year.

The point I am trying to make is that if private sector workers are having their salaries and benefits (especially pensions) rolled back it cannot continue to be all ponies and puppy dogs for those working in the public sector.

[Pops]

My point is that unions give workers bargaining power.

But lets not derail your thread, or to be more on topic, lets not run it into the bar' ditch.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')So then the solution is no one makes a good living and we can lower rich folks taxes some more?
The reason public sector wages are higher is there is no owner skimming the profits, raiding the retirement plan, and offshoring the work to a little Chinese girl. Take away government competition for employees and private wages would really fall. But at least we'd have no reason to be jealous of the dumb bus driver.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'G')reat charts, Pops.

I'm surprised to see that union membership in the US peaked in the late 1950s and has been declining for the last five and half decades now. I would've guessed that union membership started declining after Reagan busted the PATCO union in the 80s or after Clinton signed the NAFTA agreement so that US manufacturing could move their manufacturing plants to Mexico in the 90s, but its clearly a much longer term problem.

Your chart suggests the decline in union membership has been going on for half a century. It must somehow be systemic, rather then result of any individual law or policy from the government.

[Newfie]

The point wasn't about how much the driver makes, it's that you get rid of the driver.

Let's say every time you put some guy or gal out of a job you then require that he/she also be executed as well as all of the dependants?

If not, then how do you expect someone to have a job and be self sufficient?

This is the dilemma of efficiency. You out a seamstress out of work and call her a welfare mom.

There's honor in work, and no, a robot can't replace a driver when a passenger needs help, or is unruly, or sick, or drunk and threatening. And no, bus drivers are not over paid for a dumb job. They have to interface with an often hostile and crude and uncaring public, often working split shifts covering 10 or 12 hours for a an 8 hour pay check.

Never been one, I wouldn't make it, too tough a job. I'd end up in jail with blood on my hands.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he point wasn't about how much the driver makes, it's that you get rid of the driver.

Let's say every time you put some guy or gal out of a job you then require that he/she also be executed as well as all of the dependants?

If not, then how do you expect someone to have a job and be self sufficient?

This is the dilemma of efficiency. You out a seamstress out of work and call her a welfare mom.

[Newfie]

No, I do not expect people to believe me.

But think about doing some careful analysis and some math. See where it leads.

I suppose I deserved you reproach for my heavy handed post. None the less, the hard facts are on my side.

Here is a guy who know something about math, he got it mostly right, and was a pretty good explainer.

A short read....

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

[yellowcanoe]

One point being missed here is that while improving productivity so you need fewer workers makes sense from the perspective of an employer it makes no sense at all in a world with finite resources. As we are now encountering resource limits, efforts to improve productivity will only result in more unemployed people.

[kanon]

I was not trying to start a labor vs. management argument! The point is the automated bus makes more sense than the automated car and doesn't have the expense of a driver, making it seem more affordable. The corporations have a multitude of weapons against labor and have been using them effectively for decades. Labor has apparently earned a reputation for stupidity and impotence -- they even voted for Reagan! Caterpillar probably still owns the shuttered factory -- why are they not required to sell it? -- because the fired workers might buy it. Why do unions insist on ridiculous benefits and higher pay for members than non-union workers get? -- they need a privilege to justify themselves.

I think anyone who wants to argue about management vs labor should first describe the monopoly, subsidies, special financing, tax breaks, bribery, and gangsterism of management before they even mention labor. For those on the labor side, they should first describe the excessive benefits, paralyzing work rules, featherbedding, and gangsterism of unions. I really do not see the point of having a favorite parasite.

And don't forget, most if not all major industries would lose money if they had to clean up their own mess.

I sympathize with the points made by Pops and agree he gave some very good graphs. I just do not believe unions are capable of improving things for the 99% and are only effective in protected, monopoly, or privileged situations. Corporate oligarchs have moved much of the valuable stuff out of that arena and unions are not creating any opportunities, competition, or political pressure.

In the context of urban transportation, the public transportation systems are under constant attack from highway contractors, auto industry, oil companies, politicians, etc. Not to mention graft, corruption, inflated equipment costs, managerial incompetence, and, yes, grasping unions. Therefore, the attraction of simplifying things (if only an illusion), plus lower costs, intimidate labor, embrace "progress," and get a new ally, will probably lead to some attempts to employ automated buses in the future.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yellowcanoe', 'O')ne point being missed here is that while improving productivity so you need fewer workers makes sense from the perspective of an employer it makes no sense at all in a world with finite resources. As we are now encountering resource limits, efforts to improve productivity will only result in more unemployed people.

[kanon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')Elsewhere on this forum (CA drought) I mentioned the oft cited knock on effect of creating jobs. You've heard it, if we bring In this factory it will create 100 new direct jobs and 250 indirect jobs. I noted that the converse is also true, eliminating 100 factory jobs would take down 250 related jobs. Someone came back and said that was not true, it doesn't work that way. That statement does not stand a prima facia analysis. Maybe the jobs stay, but then they are being propped up by the tax payers.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', ' ')None the less, the hard facts are on my side.

Here is a guy who know something about math, he got it mostly right, and was a pretty good explainer.

A short read....

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

[kanon]

The Houston Metro transit reimagining project seems to be moving forward. It is an effort to do a major transformation of the bus system. It looks like the "hub and spoke" model is being replaced with a "grid" model. The promise is "simpler, faster, more frequent service." Also in the mix is a BRT (bus rapid transit) project in the Galeria uptown business center (still pretty central). There is an interview on this at Talking Headways Podcast: Cowboys on Light Rail which included the idea that the transit authority should actually care about riders -- amazing -- mentioning such things as pedestrian access to bus stops and getting to destinations.

It seems the bus route reconfiguration has less opposition than the BRT. This editorial Metro votes notes the different receptions for the projects. I suspect the bus route change will actually be more important than the BRT since it will likely increase costs and ridership. If you are not a car lover, Houston is a giant high-tension traffic snarl. I would expect bus ridership to increase significantly if the new route design is really good. But the BRT will probably get the continued attention as there is expensive real estate and urban transit concepts in play.

There was an initial attempt to place light rail on the BRT route, but that idea was abandoned and, in fact, there is a requirement that the BRT route are prohibited from being "light rail ready." There will be dedicated bus lanes. Rail-divisions-loom-over-Uptown-bus-project.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he $192.5 million project will use dedicated bus lanes - one in each direction - in the center of Post Oak to ferry travelers between a future transit center in Bellaire to the Northwest Transit Center near Interstate 10. Seven stops are planned, enabling a rider to take a Metro park and ride bus from suburban lots to the Bellaire or Northwest centers, and then use rapid transit to get into the Uptown area.

Metro will buy and operate the buses. Uptown is overseeing construction, which will retain three lanes for vehicles in each direction on Post Oak by adding the bus lanes in the center.

Analysts estimated that more than 19,000 people would use the line daily by 2018, provided officials build a $45 million portion that includes dedicated bus lanes in each direction along Loop 610. Without the Loop 610 lane, about 14,100 are expected to hop aboard daily.

[Newfie]

Re: Bertrand Russell

From wiki

He now started an intensive study of the foundations of mathematics at Trinity. In 1898 he wrote An Essay on the Foundations of Geometry which discussed the Cayley–Klein metrics used for non-Euclidean geometry.[91] He attended the International Congress of Philosophy in Paris in 1900 where he met Giuseppe Peano and Alessandro Padoa. The Italians had responded to Georg Cantor, making a science of set theory; they gave Russell their literature including the Formulario mathematico. Russell was impressed by the precision of Peano's arguments at the Congress, read the literature upon returning to England, and came upon Russell's paradox. In 1903 he published The Principles of Mathematics, a work on foundations of mathematics. It advanced a thesis of logicism, that mathematics and logic are one and the same.[92]

[Newfie]

@outcast re Russell

I agree, his is not the last word on the matter, and I too find reason to quibble with some of his conclusions, but my quibbles are different from yours.

I was introducing that article as an intro to discussing the matter, a starting point if you will. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

It's late, I'm tired. For the moment just accept this, for many years I thought my work HDG meaning And benefited mankind, although I did find myself revisiting the topic on occasion. Later I took a more distant and comprehensive view of what I did for a living and decided it was meaningless.

I'm glad you find meaning in your toils.

[SolarDave]

I'm thinking the future looks more like "Self-driving car meets Uber" ...

If you look at the cost of the public transportation systems in this thread (hundreds of millions) the alternative of a fleet of self-driving cars with some smart dispatch software and user apps could make a lot more sense - and individuals could play too. I work at home. I could "rent" my car to such a scheme and never miss it. With smart software it would be here when I needed it and earning money for me at all other times.