Zero Point Energy (merged)

by **avo** » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 14:47:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'I')nertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force
B. Haisch, A. Rueda & H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A, Vol. 49, No. 2, pp. 678-694 (1994).

by **pilferage** » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 16:15:58

Whoops, wrong thread.

by **pilferage** » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 16:23:11

Don't worry about large scale energy production. There's no need to reinvent fission (energy positive fusion would be nice though). However, unlike some posters in this thread, I believe ZPE could have a huge impact if we were able to create suitable variable geometry nanocomponents.
http://www.hep.caltech.edu/~phys199/lec ... _6_cas.pdf
But even if possible, this is decades away...

P.s. No really, don't worry about energy, as prices go up we'll start to see electric/gas hybrids, having longer and longer electric range as battery tech progresses until the Hydrogen economy infrastructure is in place.
Check out the difference in energy between a pound of Uranium and a pound of oil...
http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ ... ables.html
no biggie, just a factor of five. With nuclear power being the more energetic (and more efficient I believe) application, we should've switched to a fission based energy system years ago. The auto and oil industries had a lot to lose... So, nuclear was put on the back burner, and they made money hand over fist.

P.p.s I wonder if there are any socio-economic theories regarding changing resources bases... it would put this whole situation in a different light.

by **Novus** » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 18:46:38

There have three major ZPE breakthroughs in the last month which is scary from a conspiracy theorist's point of view that ZPE has been surpressed for 50 years.

Moller's Atomic Hydrogen Generator has been verified by indepentant researcher J.L. Naudin

He was able to replicate the experiments that Nicholas Moller had conducted in 2003.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In the MAHG (Moller's Atomic Hydrogen Generator), as demonstrated by Naudin, hydrogen changes between the diatomic and monatomic states without being used up. In this process, hydrogen appears to be acting as a vacuum energy pump because an excess of heat results from more energy being released during the monatomic to diatomic part of the cycle than from the dividing of the diatomic hydrogen molecules into monotomic hydrogen. Mr. Naudin's results show that the difference between output and input may reach a ratio higher than 10 to 1.

by **J-Rod** » Mon 27 Jun 2005, 20:20:07

I shot off an email to my father about this subject, as he's a PhD in Physics, and I figured he would be able to smell crap better than I. This is what I got back.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry I'm just getting around to e-mail.

For fun, you might search for "Maxwell's Demon (or Daemon)". The parallel is interesting. In the late 1800's, when they realized that heat was the result of little invisible things (later identified as molecules and atoms) bumping into each other and the faster they went, the hotter things got, the holy grail was some sort of filter that would let the speedy ones through but block the slowpokes. The result would be the ultimate heater / refrigerator. Today, we do just that to cool things to nearly absolute zero with ion and laser traps, etc. The catch is (as always) that it takes far more energy to isolate the region than any resulting energy that could possibly be produced. Quantum vacuum fluctuations (or ZPE, in the language of Gypsys looking for investors) are orders of magnitude smaller and exist for something much less than a nanosecond. Isolating and measuring this (I'm not sure it's ever been done to everyone's satisfaction) will take far more energy. Before you invest, wait until American Electric Power offers it as an option on your bill.

by **Keith_McClary** » Tue 28 Jun 2005, 01:07:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('avo', '
')And, I'm really sorry, but even at a micro scale you ALWAYS need to put in at least as much energy as you get out of "zero point" energy via the Casimir effect. An analysis that shows otherwise has simply not accounted for the entire input energy budget. This is an entirely obvious consquence of energy conservation within the framework of quantum field theory (a subject that I teach regularly at a major research univeristy). Shame on the Physical Review referees who either didn't know this or didn't have the guts to have a fight over it.
Avo

by **Novus** » Tue 28 Jun 2005, 17:56:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('J-Rod', 'I') shot off an email to my father about this subject, as he's a PhD in Physics, and I figured he would be able to smell crap better than I. This is what I got back.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry I'm just getting around to e-mail.

For fun, you might search for "Maxwell's Demon (or Daemon)". The parallel is interesting. In the late 1800's, when they realized that heat was the result of little invisible things (later identified as molecules and atoms) bumping into each other and the faster they went, the hotter things got, the holy grail was some sort of filter that would let the speedy ones through but block the slowpokes. The result would be the ultimate heater / refrigerator. Today, we do just that to cool things to nearly absolute zero with ion and laser traps, etc. The catch is (as always) that it takes far more energy to isolate the region than any resulting energy that could possibly be produced. Quantum vacuum fluctuations (or ZPE, in the language of Gypsys looking for investors) are orders of magnitude smaller and exist for something much less than a nanosecond. Isolating and measuring this (I'm not sure it's ever been done to everyone's satisfaction) will take far more energy. Before you invest, wait until American Electric Power offers it as an option on your bill.

by **Novus** » Tue 28 Jun 2005, 18:28:35

Quantum fluctuations are the King of all Energy. When the universe was one quadrillionth of a second old all the energy in the Universe was ZPE. All other energies are secondary to ZPE. Not even matter or gravity could exist without ZPE. The ZPE fluctuations have been measured at frequencies of 10^30 hertz which gives them smaller then atomic sized wavelengths. ZPE is the most ominpresent force in the Universe effecting everything from the quantum leap to the particle physics of light. ZPE even exists at the bottom of super massive black holes.

I took some time to draw up some theoretical digrams of Moller's experiment with Hydrogen.

Hydrogen exists mostly in two forms. The single monatomic hydrogen, H and the the diatomic hydrogen molecule H2. Here is a visualization of the two while interacting with ZPE fields.

Both the diatomic and monatomic states of hydrogen leave footprints in ZPE fields that permeate the universe. The two monatomic hydrogen atoms it takes to form the diatomic state leave a larger footprint in ZPE field then does the diatomic state.

VS

When two monatomic hydrogen atoms are bonded to form the diatomic state an overlap is created in the ZPE field.

This excess of ZPE leaves the diatomic hydrogen in an excited state. This excess ZPE becomes a useable energy that can be extracted. This is exactly what Moller does in his experiment. He exctracts the ZPE from hydrogen's diatomic state. After the energy is siphoned off the diatomic hydrogen is split back into its' monatomic form and the lost ZPE is refilled back into the footprint from the sea of ZPE that surounds them. Moller's atomic hydrogen generator cycles the hydrogen back and forth between the monatomic and diatomic states to pump ZPE out of the universe.

This experiment really works and any properly equiped physics lab can reproduce the results.

by **nth** » Tue 28 Jun 2005, 19:52:02

ZPE is not free energy.
The 1 cent per kwh is based on today's energy prices, is my guess.

The device they created if it works will require energy to built the magnetics. It has to be a device deploying magnetics to produce power.

From what I understand of magnets, they will lose their magnetic force over time and grow weaker and weaker. So, basically, this device might not have EROIE over 1. It might be a good flywheel. It might be better than H economy to use magnetics.

Canada has research in using magnets to store lots of energy. Strong magnets that operates several times stronger than conventional magnets.

Again, people shouldn't confuse the theory and actual products. In theory, ZPE may exist and actually no scientist has come up with why they shouldn't. They just don't want to believe in it.

As for developing a device to harness it, from what I understand of ZPE, it is not easy to harness this and I cannot imagine someone can built a small device to harness this. The device should be a huge machine. I think you are better off creating a device to generate power from fusion.

by **Brandon** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 00:15:09

Naudin got 1571% over unity during a one hour test of the MAHG yesterday.

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm

Either he's a total fraud, he's massively incompetant, or he's actually on to something.

I'm waiting for a detailed description on how to replicate the experiment. Like where to buy or how to build the parts and stuff for the generator. In layman's terms that someone who's a tinkerer and has a bit of electronics experience could replicate.

I don't see any info on his site about investors or patents. If it's for real, is he doing it just for the science and the good of humanity?

by **Keith_McClary** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 01:16:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nth', 'I')n theory, ZPE may exist and actually no scientist has come up with why they shouldn't. They just don't want to believe in it.

by **khebab** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 09:23:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'W')hen two monatomic hydrogen atoms are bonded to form the diatomic state an overlap is created in the ZPE field.

by **nth** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 11:30:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nth', 'I')n theory, ZPE may exist and actually no scientist has come up with why they shouldn't. They just don't want to believe in it.

by **nth** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 11:31:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('khebab', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'W')hen two monatomic hydrogen atoms are bonded to form the diatomic state an overlap is created in the ZPE field.

by **J-Rod** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 11:56:11

I think this is what my dad was getting at with Maxwell's Demon. That there is no free lunch when dealing with thermodynamics. From what I can understand it takes a considerable amount of energy to even monitor the QVF, much less than be over unity.

To answer the previous question, I am not really sure how pops stands on PO. I have mentioned it to him, and he kind of skirted the issue. I am not that close with him, communication was never our strong point. I am of the belief that he knows it's a finite resource, and that there's a looming problem, just not sure of what kind of a timeline he thinks is valid. However he was born in 1940, so he's lived through many "boys who cried wolf" as well as the 70's ordeal. That would tend to make you a bit of a skeptic. As far as the physics, he was always more into the astrophysics, highly theoretical stuff. Many conversations I had to just tell him to stop as it went over my head 20 mins earlier, and I am no dummy. =]

by **Novus** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 17:16:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('khebab', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'W')hen two monatomic hydrogen atoms are bonded to form the diatomic state an overlap is created in the ZPE field.

by **Novus** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 17:25:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Brandon', 'N')audin got 1571% over unity during a one hour test of the MAHG yesterday.

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/tests/mahg2c.htm

Either he's a total fraud, he's massively incompetant, or he's actually on to something.

I'm waiting for a detailed description on how to replicate the experiment. Like where to buy or how to build the parts and stuff for the generator. In layman's terms that someone who's a tinkerer and has a bit of electronics experience could replicate.

I don't see any info on his site about investors or patents. If it's for real, is he doing it just for the science and the good of humanity?

by **nth** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 17:40:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('khebab', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'W')hen two monatomic hydrogen atoms are bonded to form the diatomic state an overlap is created in the ZPE field.

by **Cyrus** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 18:10:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat is the repurcussions of having low ZPE?
As I understand it, it is a constant, meaning the same amount of energy everywhere. If you use it, won't it just dilute the energy everywhere?

Also, the scientists making these equipments cannot guarantee that they are using ZPE. They are guessing it is ZPE. It could be another source of power.

by **Novus** » Wed 29 Jun 2005, 19:37:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cyrus', '
')
Or maybe it is complete bullshit. Until I see this working myself, its no more than text on a screen.

Zero Point Energy (merged)

Another Zero Point Energy Breakthrough

My understanding of the lastest break throughs

ZPE is not a hoax

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