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Agenda 21

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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 25 Feb 2015, 17:03:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'W')here do you get your information from? This is absolute nonsense!


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2015/02/10/blogs/20150210-lens-bharat-2/20150210-lens-bharat-2-blog480.jpg[/img]
Moonrise, as seen from Les Eglantiers, one of the many housing projects in the northern 13th Arrondissement of Marseille. These buildings were constructed in the late ’60s and early ’70s to accommodate immigrant communities, especially Maghrebis

Marseille is one of France’s poorest cities, and most of its sizable Muslim population lives in large public housing projects. Squalid building conditions, rampant poverty and high unemployment have made drug dealing and violence commonplace, Mr. Choudhary said.

He blames flawed urban planning, institutional discrimination and government apathy for turning the buildings into “poverty traps,” while racial and religious discrimination makes it difficult for residents to move to better neighborhoods.
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/french-muslims-never-fully-at-home/?_r=0


Why don't we get back on topic.

So what are the agenda 21 ideas, regarding just walling off the poor into ghettos? :?: :?: :?:

Is the new green urban vision for everyone, really?

The most I know about this topic, and the new kinds of zoning, are communities that seem like gated communities but they've got the jobs and retail there too. And then they'll throw in maybe ONE "affordable housing" apartment building in the middle of it. But the rents there are still out of sight, and the waiting lists long. Oh, and what they do now is they make it mixed so only like 20% or 30% or whatever of the apartments are income restricted. That income restriction is actually still ABOVE what most working class poor can afford.

So anyhow, people just live in poor areas -- that are not "green" -- and then they drive INTO the new "green, walkable" communities. Or they ride a bus. They sure as hell can't walk or ride a bicycle into them, I'm talking where I live by the way not france, the new style development projects are in the east county on old farmland.

AND HOW IS THAT green by the way, new green developments on what was farmland and wildlands before. :roll: This whole topic is just hilarious. "Green" growth is an oxymoron anyway, and we all know it.

I MOSTLY like how the new urban concepts look, over here at least it's still too sanitized though -- it's nice not seeing poor people, sure it is, but it also feels artificial to me.

The real problem actually is the extreme income disparity. So see. I'm not a Ted Cruz Republican after all. Wages have got to go up, we've got too many poor, and "green zones" for elites to live in and feel smug while eating goat cheese and arugala aren't gonna save the planet anyway.

Wages gotta got up, and then sure spruce our cities and towns up too, but don't do a new Segregation in America and call it green and feelgood. Seriously. So that's another thread, but the next election will be about wages -- can Democrats get them up, or is Bush right on the old "raising tide" argument. I'm in the middle of it.

So far what I've seen from Democrats is they have ignored the poor, and they're just so smugly green. What ever happened to caring about PEOPLE. Hm?
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 25 Feb 2015, 18:57:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hese buildings were constructed in the late ’60s and early ’70s

...

He blames flawed urban planning



Exactly, the planning done in the 60's and 70's was flawed all around. It was flawed in the malls it built, the public housing it built, the office parks it built, the roads it built, and the cul-de-sacs it built. It built a lot of stuff that was flawed. The manifestation of the failed ideas about separating uses and people are now being corrected.

The (in)famous Pruitt-Igoe project in St Louis designed in the 60-70's

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and what they did with it (finally, thankfully)

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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 26 Feb 2015, 03:58:46

Agenda 21 is about 'better' planning that avoids creating the kinds of ghetto you seem to be so interested in. It's also about who pays for the externalities of industrialisation and is one reason the right hate it. They want the external costs of capitalism to be hidden from view not exposed by the planning process. As the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution Lancashire had a massive legacy of decaying factories, polluted land and rivers unfit for development or habitation [in some cases even by insects]. All this a by-product of your wonderful capitalist system. Many of the mill owners where I came from used their profits to build seaside towns where they lived with their families whilst leaving the mess for local government to clear up in the future. It's always been the same try reading Upton Sinclair's The Jungle or Little Steel, I know they are fiction but based on conditions at the time. The planning process has always been dominated by the interests of the rich and powerful, Agenda 21 attempted to correct the imbalance. As always reactionary forces will fight back using their hired men and stooges, but progress will be made in the long term. How far the working man has to suffer before the system is transformed, and what natural resources are left for the new system is the pertinent question.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 26 Feb 2015, 17:28:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', ' ')The planning process has always been dominated by the interests of the rich and powerful, Agenda 21 attempted to correct the imbalance. As always reactionary forces will fight back using their hired men and stooges, but progress will be made in the long term.

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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 26 Feb 2015, 20:05:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'P')ersonally -- I don't like bike lanes. It's a traffic hazzard. I think people should ride their bikes on the sidewalk. It's much safer all around, on the sidewalk, with a yard or two separating from vehicular traffic. And then folk can walk on sidewalks too. I think bikes and walkers need to stay off the roads -- sidewalks, no bike lanes.


Yeah, its really safe on sidewalks, 20mph crossing an intersection every 50ft.

You're really, really, really nuts. Bike lanes aren't great, I won't use them, even when they're available; but there is absolutely no more dangerous place for a bicycle than on the sidewalk. sidewalks are sideWALKs. They are what you use when you have a flat and want to walk your bike to a shady spot to fix/change a tube.

I have many thousands of road miles on this body. The only places I've ever been injured in any way, were sidewalks, bike paths, and sand. Big wide, traffic lanes shared with cars and trucks are, without a doubt, the safest environment for bicycles being used as vehicles for transportation purposes. Big shoulders are a close second, but they have some drawbacks approaching intersections and around certain blind approaches.

But bicycles and pedestrians are one of the worst mixes you can have; on my bike, at traveling speed, I have about the same reaction time to stop as a loaded F150; and less agility than an F150 by far. Pedestrians twitch left or right, for no discernible reason, at will.

This position is consistent with the traffic law common across the United States (with minor variances).

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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 26 Feb 2015, 20:22:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'A')genda 21 is about 'better' planning that avoids creating the kinds of ghetto


Yes, but remember that the high rise public housing ghettoes put up in the 50s-70s were also sold as being about better planning. They were supposed to replace the 4 story "tenements". The Pruitt-Igoe public housing buildings (above) and similar things were all put up by liberals in the name of "better planning." Tear down the village sized tenement buildings---put up giant inhuman sized public housing buildings.

Liberals called it "urban renewal." Bigger was better---except it wasn't. All liberals did was create giant 30 story high vertical housing project ghettos to warehouse minorities in city centers----the liberals better planning turned out to be good for Ds wanting all their D voters in one place, but it was terrible for the poor people warehoused in the housing projects.

--------------------

Anytime you get a top-down program, you tend to get an approach to problems that does't fit very well in actual local situations. In the 60s giant public housing ghettoes were built in cities across this country by the Federal HUD program. Every inner city had to build them, and now they are mostly all considered disasters and mistakes.

When you visit Germany you find the results of lots of "better planning" in the former East Germany----thousands of huge sterile empty housing projects. The old city centers are much more interesting and without all that "better planning".

Now Agenda 21 is proposing some other big "Fix". Once again, the liberal "experts" are hoping to impose some top-down program of their devising. Once again "better planning" is promised.

Sometimes its better to let local communities and local people decide what best for them in their local communities, rather than having distant self-appointed experts force things on them that don't actually work in various local settings.

--------------

When you visit the wonderful cities and villages of Europe they have nothing to do with "better planning" They developed organically thorough time---they are human scale and very fun to walk in and live in.

The dead parts of Europe are the banlieues and giant housing projects-----their sterility and inhuman scale is the hallmark of "better planning" around the world.

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Great places to live aren't "planned" in accordance with programs like "Agenda 21"---they develop organically from the needs of the people who live there
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 02:20:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'Y')ou're really, really, really nuts. Bike lanes aren't great, I won't use them, even when they're available; but there is absolutely no more dangerous place for a bicycle than on the sidewalk.


Well, I'm talking about suburban areas, really. Yes, downtowns there's too much pedestrian traffic for bikes to use the sidewalk and you're right I guess the ordinance is you're not supposed to. It's common sense, sure if you're downtown then you don't ride on the sidewalk. But otherwise -- at least in my area --sprawl as far as the eye can see, of empty sidewalks. So why put in bike lanes too.

Bike lanes are not safe. It's a nuisance for drivers with everyone having to slow down or swerve a bit.

So here, I'll make an Agenda 22 masterpiece of green and SAFE urban planning:

ROAD ||, at least a yard of easement grass then || bikelane, two feet of grass, then || sidewalk.

The point illustrated here is that these are LOCAL issues. There is no one master plan for all. Where I live, most folk ride on the sidewalks, except downtown. It just depends on the area. If it's a quiet residential street, then sure ride in the road. If it's moderate mixed use and busy roads but empty sidewalks -- then use the sidewalk. If it's downtown, with busy pedestrians and vehicular -- then you have to use the roads. It's a bicycle. It's not rocket science.

I for one would never, ever, ride a bicycle on a busy road. I do not trust drunks and 95 year olds driving their landyachts and whizzing by on my left at 45 mph with just a couple feet to spare. No thanks, I'll use the sidewalks. And if I go downtown, I'm not riding a darn bicycle.

Agent -- people on mopeds and motorcycles get hit ALL THE TIME. The only reasons cyclists don't get hit as much, as least around where I am, is that people don't ride bikes so much. Or if they do, they have some sense like I do, and take advantage of the sidewalk and get a lot of space from the motorists.

Other than downtown areas, I just feel like it's riduclous when you see KIDS that have enough sense to ride on the sidewalk but then you've got some yuppie in spandex riding a bicycle on a busy road, endangering everyone, just so he can get some exercise. It's so annoying. All the traffic has to slow down, and then swerve, and that's just dangerous. And then you get some idiots -- usually young adults riding to work, that ride their bicycles on the road at night and they've got no reflective vest on or nothin, I hate that.

Honestly -- sidewalks are safer -- the cars at the intersection are stopping, and can see you and you see them as you cross intersections; vehicles on the road are in motion.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an You Ride a Bike on the Sidewalk?

Here's a look at biking on sidewalks — which is a perfect microcosm of the complicated relationship between traffic and bicycle laws in most states.

What Are Sidewalk Riding Laws?

Sidewalk riding laws define the rights and duties of a bicyclist when riding on a sidewalk. Whether a bicycle can be legally ridden on a sidewalk highlights the complicated and hybrid nature of the bicycle under current traffic laws in most states. A bicycle is at once a vehicle, given all the rights and duties of a vehicle; its own entity, subject to specifically tailored alternative rules; and in some cases treated as a pedestrian, with all accompanying rights and duties. In some instances, laws related to sidewalk riding can also highlight a division between adult and child bicycling.

When states do not explicitly allow bicycles to be ridden on sidewalks, court interpretations of statutes may still allow bicycles to be ridden on sidewalks. In most, if not all, states, either statutes or court decisions say that whatever laws govern bicycle behavior on sidewalks will also apply to crosswalks.

In addition to these issues caused by the hybrid nature of bicycles, many states leave their traffic laws open to change by localities, either in limited circumstances or through a general grant of power. Whether a bicycle may be ridden on a sidewalk is often explicitly allowed to be a local decision and may also be limited in central business districts, where pedestrian traffic is likely to be heavier.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/can-you-ride-a-bike-on-the-sidewalk-zb0z1306zsal.aspx
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 03:06:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ther than downtown areas, I just feel like it's riduclous when you see KIDS that have enough sense to ride on the sidewalk but then you've got some yuppie in spandex riding a bicycle on a busy road, endangering everyone, just so he can get some exercise. It's so annoying. All the traffic has to slow down, and then


1. I don't own any spandex.
2. I*m not sure how spandex is relevant to safety.
3. Sidewalks are extremely dangerous for a cyclist traveling distance at speed.
4. This is not about some stupid exercise or recreation; its about transportation.
5. Sidewalks are lethal, legal in some places to use anyway, but absolutely lethal.
6. I've ridden many thousands of miles on busy roads, both urban core, suburban, and rural highway. Sidewalks are far more dangerous than the roads.
7. I obey the law. The motorists around me obey the law. I suggest you do the same.
8. I'm not a yuppie.

If you want to change the law, get at it, but beware, touch transportation law and you have to have real numbers, and real numbers are extremely unkind to your viewpoint.

Until the law is changed, (which is *never* on this issue), I will ride in the safest place to ride a bicycle, in the lane, "far to the right as practicable", aka about 2-3ft from the curb or so; traveling in the same direction as traffic, obeying all traffic signals and using the appropriate turn lanes for left and right turns as are indicated by pavement marking or signage.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 03:28:02

In Tokyo, people ride bikes on the sidewalk, and they'll clip a pedestrian who doesn't pay attention. And some people are hauling two kids in seats front and back, plus groceries.

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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 03:56:37

Hm.. some food for thought:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]ROSA KOIRE: Author and Activist, "Behind the Green Mask"

Agenda 21 is the Master Plan put forth by the United Nations in 1992 and adopted by President Bill Clinton. Agenda 21 is a green initiative which targets cars and people living away from cities who must commute. Their goal is to develop large, congested city centers for people to reside, and provide mass transit for the city dwellers to commute to work. It also targets large parcels of land in the world, including the United States, to be redistricted to "open space land", thereby making it undevelopable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugaQzc7OpmY


She's a "lesbian and Democrat" and author of "Behind the Green Mask:"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')eview
Rep. Jim McCune, Washington State congressman, in his newsletter:
Behind the Green Mask: U.N. Agenda 21, was written by a woman who was able to put into words her first-hand experiences of her harrowing journey defending property rights. It reads almost like a mystery or thriller. It's hard to put down, because you want to know what happens next.


G. Edward Griffin, author of The Creature From Jekyll Island:
"Behind The Green Mask: UN Agenda 21 covers a tremendous amount of ground in a concise, well-written, and deeply insightful book. Rosa lays bare the building blocks of tyranny from global to local that are the foundation of the UN's Agenda 21/Sustainable Development."

About the Author

Rosa Koire, ASA, is the executive director of the Post Sustainability Institute. She is a forensic commercial real estate appraiser specializing in eminent domain valuation. Her nearly 30 years of experience analyzing land use and property value enabled her to recognize the planning revolution sweeping the country. While fighting to stop a huge redevelopment project in her city she researched the corporate, political, and financial interests behind it and found UN Agenda 21. Impacting every aspect of our lives, UN Agenda 21/Sustainable Development is a corporate manipulation using the Green Mask of environmental concern to forward a globalist plan. Rosa speaks across the nation and is a regular blogger on her website Democrats Against UN Agenda 21 dot com.
http://www.amazon.com/BEHIND-GREEN-MASK-UN-Agenda-ebook/dp/B006OCWHCW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425023088&sr=8-1&keywords=behind+the+green+mask


I'm watching her lecture now, just to get informed about it. A lot of the anti-agenda 21 from the right wing sounds conspiracy theory to me, maybe I can understand it better from left wing opposition.

I only just started watching it but I notice she says something I've said a lot of times before, that green issues are being used as a cover to usher in a totalitarian state (or totalitarian-ish, I don't mean to sound like a nut). You can see that on this forum, how many times have we seen threads about "climate change denier jail." Next thing you know, it would be "climate agenda denier jail."

She also says the eco fascists have hijacked the environmentalist movement.

She talks about communities "tearing each other apart over bike lanes, bike boulevards, and leaf blowers."

Anyhow I'm gonna watch the rest of this thing and see if I can figure it out. :lol:
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 04:18:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I')n Tokyo, people ride bikes on the sidewalk, and they'll clip a pedestrian who doesn't pay attention. And some people are hauling two kids in seats front and back, plus groceries.


Okay see, I guess some Agenda 21 eco fascist would want her to use the bike lane right next to her.

I say she's got common sense, and doing what is safe, and riding that bike and her baby on the SIDEWALK. With some more space from the traffic.

You guys really think the woman in that picture, and her baby, should be riding in that little bike lane with the motor traffic?
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 04:19:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'I')n Tokyo, people ride bikes on the sidewalk, and they'll clip a pedestrian who doesn't pay attention. And some people are hauling two kids in seats front and back, plus groceries.


Tokyo's a different world. Also of note, that bike you pictured is power-assisted. Not quite a moped/scooter, but not exactly what people think of when they say "bicycle". I'm not quite sure how I'd approach getting around in Tokyo; I'd probably just walk between public transportation stops for local; it'd take a heck of a lot of booze for me to be willing to ride a bike on a sidewalk, and driving a car down some of those narrow hallways they call roads... I'll pass.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')ually young adults riding to work, that ride their bicycles on the road at night and they've got no reflective vest on or nothin, I hate that.


Vests are overrated. REAL LIGHTS, 12v, regular road traffic type lights. That is what I use; though I do use two ambers in back in addition to the red, helps cue people in that something atypical is ahead; I use three white's in front, again to provide an atypical visual picture. Used to not really be possible; halogens ate to much power; but modern 12v LEDs are excellent. nb, not talking about the silly $5 blinky things they sell in bike stores. Go to a motorcyle shop or order from a catalog for motocycles and scooters; wire from a 12v rechargeable; and you can have real lights for about $200 or so.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 04:45:54

Here's a tighter, less rambling speech by this Democrats Against Agenda 21 person:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow your community is implementing AGENDA 21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEHWsdimVO4


Okay, she makes some good points about urban planning. And that the Agenda 21 idea is to get everyone out of the rural areas, and concentrated into urban, since with concentration you can do more public transit and then that's how you reduce greenhouse emissions.

So what happens to small farms. What happens to property rights.

I've read some other places, that they want to turn a lot of land into "wildlands." Would they use eminent domain for that, hm?

And the speaker is right, in that this 1992 agreement was soft law. Not a treaty ever ratified by the Senate.

So the crux of this whole thing is about property rights, and freedom. I, for one, cannot stand deed restrictions and "condo nazis" and HO associations with busybodies, and all of that.

Anyhow -- this is a wild video, it's "Tea Party Telivision," she's talking about being a proud lesbian and a feminist, and she's against Agenda 21. Pretty far out. 8O

I'm not against bullet trains and such, by the way, but is the agenda 21 plan really to do away with the rural communities and get everyone more concentrated and living on top of each other? And then it's sold as "walkable green community?" But really it's just the upper class concentrated into their area, and then all the working class concentrated into another area and then they take their green nat gas bus to go work in the shiny green zone gated mixed use community?

Maybe the free market can, organically, come up with better ideas. Look at something like Uber. A multi billion dollar massive success. People use that thing more than they'd call a cab or want to ride a bus. If it's free market, I'm okay with it, if it's too much central planning and dictate -- then I don't know about that.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 10:59:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'S')o the crux of this whole thing is about property rights, and freedom. I, for one, cannot stand deed restrictions and "condo nazis" and HO associations with busybodies, and all of that.


You're really all over the place on this one. deed restrictions and HOAs are the essence of property rights. Its right there with the documents you signed when you bought the property. There are plenty of properties with no deed restrictions and no home owners associations. If you want such a thing, its really, really easy. When you walk into the office of the realtor to go house hunting, say the following: "I will not, under any circumstance, sign the closing documents if the property in question has a home owners association or deed restrictions." I don't mind modest deed restrictions, but I won't have anything to do with a HOA, so that was my instruction to the realtor, and they had zero problem finding things to try to sell me.

My opinion on the whole Agenda 21 thing is that its horribly overblown, and being used by everyone and their dog to oppose whatever regulation or process they don't like. Heck, there's a post on this board somewhere about Agenda 21 stopping people from having their kids help out on the farm. What it really was, was a US federal regulation to keep 12 year olds from driving the farm tractor across town on the highway. That wasn't Agenda 21; that was just SANITY.

People also get all riled up about anything "UN"; when in point of fact, the UN can't mandate beans to a member state. That's not its purpose. It exists to keep the US, Europe, Russia, and China from blowing the world to smithereens; and to allow the smaller countries a forum where their concerns can be voiced (and ignored). That's it. Nothing more. It forms a convenient meeting place of whatever. If Bobland's troops put on blue hats and participate in a peacekeeping mission; they remain Bobland's troops; loyal to Bobland; and they use the UN framework to coordinate their troops with Saraland's troops who are also wearing blue hats. They don't become a UN Military by painting a bucket blue and putting it on their heads.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 11:14:49

One of the most authoritarian, anti-property rights system rampant in the United States is Euclidean Zoning. Fight against that if you are truly for property rights.
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Re: Agenda 21

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 27 Feb 2015, 12:53:21

One thing we learned from Glenn beck and Jonah Goldberg was that people who casually use the word "fascist" usually spew Nazi beliefs uncontrollably.
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