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Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 26 Jan 2015, 17:29:26

Ibon, you know I'm on my way there. You are the closest to a brother I ever met in cyberspace. Right now I'm in Garuda island & its awesome. Truth & care are the only things that matter. Anxiety brings.neither closer.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 26 Jan 2015, 21:50:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')bon, you know I'm on my way there. You are the closest to a brother I ever met in cyberspace. Right now I'm in Garuda island & its awesome. Truth & care are the only things that matter. Anxiety brings.neither closer.


If the winds blow you this way let us know..... we will put you up in our homestead....

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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Loki » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 00:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I') wasn't suggesting anything predestined. Just that the external forces caused by overshoot will increase in dominance and culture will adapt to this, probably with a combination of primitive and enlightened responses. A "forever" dark age as you suggest is totally inconsistent with history. A dark age however is not. When you use the term "forever" you are revealing something about your own perceptions and internal narrative.

Let's skip the pop psychology shall we? H. sapiens evolved 100,000+ years ago. Only for a tiny fraction of that time have we been "civilized" (i.e., lived in cities), and only for a tiny fraction of that fraction have we enjoyed technological civilization. THAT'S what history teaches. Not sure what history books you've been reading.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you spend any time in poor communities anywhere in the world you will notice that poverty does not isolate individuals, it is just the opposite. The less you have the less you individuate and the more you draw yourself into your community and culture.

From your posts it doesn't sound like you've experienced poverty, unemployment, etc. Sounds like you're doing quite well for yourself, actually. It's easy to talk about how others should react to the decline of our society, not so easy when it's you and your's directly experiencing it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') mentioned the emerging millennials. Many don't have cars, do not inspire to live in the suburbs, are into the shared economy, are sharing rooms in urban areas, sharing rides when travelling, couch surfing and all that. There is some cultural adaptation happening. It's not stagnant and a "forever" dark age we are moving to.

This is mostly media hype IMHO and has more to do with their age than any significant cultural shift. I'm Gen X, when I was in my early/mid 20s I didn't own a car and constantly bummed rides, I lived in an urban apartment with roommates, etc. There's nothing new about this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')oki, relieving anxiety at this point is about rejecting individualism and working on your relationships. This is just as important as learning gardening and getting out of debt.

You keep wanting to personalize this. I was just giving you the facts about what it's like for folks in modern America experiencing downward mobility. If you'd like to continue personalizing the conversation, I'll just say that "Don't worry, be happy" is easy to say from a castle on the hill. That was my first thought when I read your OP, but I was trying to be polite.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 01:12:11

Extremely few first worlders ever really become fully integrated into developing societies. It is close to impossible to convince people in these places that you have genuine reasons to enjoin them in poverty. The assumption is always you are either on the run or you are crazy. The idea that somehow poverty is better than priveledge makes no sense to poor people. Even if you marry in & learn the language & culture fluently, the assumption is that eventually you will return to where your earning capacity is greatest The ability to earn enough to be a serious benefactor to your adopted community, but to prefer not to do so, shows a failure to really integrate. Only the most extremely isolated tribal people in the world might be so naïve as to accept such a choice.

I don't doubt that Ibon & others here intimately involved in 2nd/ 3rd world communities are aware of this paradox & dilemma.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 02:20:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')'m not nearly as shy and anxious as when I was younger.
Me too, but I think it's because we old fogies don't give a damn what the young whippersnappers think.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 09:24:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')Even if you marry in & learn the language & culture fluently, the assumption is that eventually you will return to where your earning capacity is greatest The ability to earn enough to be a serious benefactor to your adopted community, but to prefer not to do so, shows a failure to really integrate. Only the most extremely isolated tribal people in the world might be so naïve as to accept such a choice.

I don't doubt that Ibon & others here intimately involved in 2nd/ 3rd world communities are aware of this paradox & dilemma.


This post would best be a private message just for SeaGypsy, since we don't have many expats on this board who will find this relevant or interesting. but I will try to make this also relevant for others who might read this.

Having lived many years in Southeast Asia, Europe and Latin America, there are some important distinctions to make regarding integration. As a white guy living in the Philippines and Thailand, regardless that I married into the culture ( my wife is filipina) and that I learned the languages better than 90% of other foreigners, regardless of how much I respected the pride of the peoples I lived with, regardless of how finely tuned my cultural knowledge was, integration was never really possible. The paradox and dilemma that SeaGypsy mentions is real, the barrier however has less to do with my privileged white ass background and more to do with the stereotypes that are deeply fixed in these asian cultures regarding their views of foreigners.

Latin America is quite different. The indigenous are mainly marginalized just like in North America, with few exceptions. That means that the dominant culture here in Latin America is still European and mestizo stock and Latin cultures are immigrant cultures similar like North America. This makes integration far more easier. My mother was Italian and I have some Latin roots and I do speak Spanish almost as fluent as the native born. I can say that here in Panama we are culturally integrated just about the same as say a first generation Italian immigrant living in the US after say 10 years. He feels American and he identifies with his new culture and he is accepted. This is one of the great aspects of the Americas. Immigrants integrate quickly. There are many expats living here in Panama who do stay in their expat communities and do not learn the language and do not integrate into Panamanian culture. They are living in isolated islands and they are basically not too different from foreigners living in say Thailand. The point is if you choose to you can integrate here in the Americas because these are immigrant cultures. I also lived 10 years in Europe. I found it harder to integrate into Germany and Switzerland where I lived even though my first wife was Swiss and I spoke the local Swiss German dialect fluently. Europeans have a strong nationalism and integration there, even though you share their race and privilege, is actually not as easy as some might think. Latin America is the place where I have been the most successful in culturally integrating, probably because I share their New World roots. Also because since I was very young I was in exile to the country of my birth (USA).

We have indigenous staff here at Mount Totumas. For 7 years I have been working with my caretaker and his family. We socialize with our indigenous neighbors. My wife shares their looks more than I do and they somehow recognize my wife's humble past living in a thatched roof hut in the Philippines. When I associate with indigenous culture here in many ways I feel the familiar barrier just like I did in Asia. The indigenous however have a deeper layer of stoicism, an inherent distrust of Latinos and whites. They move in a different rhythm. Friendship and intimate personal family stuff is only shared when an organic rootedness sets in after many months and years. The friendly cliches of "Hi, how are you" etc. do not exist in indigenous cultures, I watch guests here make these efforts to reach out in friendship to my indigenous staff only to get these blank stares. If there is no organic connection and shared experience there is no small talk. Once you understand this you no longer feel uncomfortable with the silence coming back at you from interactions with the indigenous. Most foreigners misinterpret this horribly.

Now, when it comes to the disparity of wealth, life experiences and yes, privilege, I think this is somewhat universal in all cultures. There are Panamanians who will resent your wealth or try to exploit you and there are Panamanians who are inherently humble, whether privileged or not, who are trustworthy. The key is to quickly differentiate this and align yourself with honest humble folk. This is the same anywhere, even in the US which is experiencing an increasing disparity between rich and poor.

If for example, we see alternative lifestyles emerge in North America, where the privileged and the poor integrate in some kind of community living arrangement like I suggested in a post further up thread, then you would have to deal with the same issues. No matter what you say, there will always be folks whose resentment will not allow them to integrate and accept some one who is privileged, just as the privileged will never be able to cultivate the humility to win the hearts of those of less means (remember Mitt Romney).

The 21st century will be about negotiating culturally in an environment of increasing disparity. There are important social skills required. One thing I learned in living and associating with people who were far less privileged than myself was to be extremely sensitive to their pride.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 09:36:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')From your posts it doesn't sound like you've experienced poverty, unemployment, etc. Sounds like you're doing quite well for yourself, actually. It's easy to talk about how others should react to the decline of our society, not so easy when it's you and your's directly experiencing it.


There are aspects of my personal background I prefer to not reveal, however I will share something with you. My father went backrupt when I was 10 years old, the following years we were destitute. I went through college with full financial aid without loans which was still possible back in the 70's if you were poor. My father was deeply ashamed about our financial situation back then. But I recently shared with him that the greatest gift he ever gave his children was not anything material but the very survival skills we all learned as a family in those lean years.

I never took out a loan, even in business, never bought a house I couldn't pay off within a short time, never bought a new car, only used. Already back in the late 70's onward I was in exile from American culture and living a frugal austere life.

This is what eventually lead me to the success in business and to the wealth that I am privileged to have today. I think my father, in his late 80's today, does understand those hardships we went through way back then were indeed, the most precious gift he gave his children.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 15:37:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')his post would best be a private message just for SeaGypsy, since we don't have many expats on this board who will find this relevant or interesting. but I will try to make this also relevant for others who might read this.
Thanks, very interesting.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Loki » Wed 28 Jan 2015, 23:06:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')From your posts it doesn't sound like you've experienced poverty, unemployment, etc. Sounds like you're doing quite well for yourself, actually. It's easy to talk about how others should react to the decline of our society, not so easy when it's you and your's directly experiencing it.


There are aspects of my personal background I prefer to not reveal, however I will share something with you. My father went backrupt when I was 10 years old, the following years we were destitute. I went through college with full financial aid without loans which was still possible back in the 70's if you were poor. My father was deeply ashamed about our financial situation back then. But I recently shared with him that the greatest gift he ever gave his children was not anything material but the very survival skills we all learned as a family in those lean years.

I never took out a loan, even in business, never bought a house I couldn't pay off within a short time, never bought a new car, only used. Already back in the late 70's onward I was in exile from American culture and living a frugal austere life.

This is what eventually lead me to the success in business and to the wealth that I am privileged to have today. I think my father, in his late 80's today, does understand those hardships we went through way back then were indeed, the most precious gift he gave his children.

This only confirms my hunch that the man in the castle is telling the peasants "don't worry, be happy." I think you might be slightly out of touch with the reality of modern working-class America.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 29 Jan 2015, 04:07:28

One point to consider is that what worries the top 15 pct of the world's population has been affecting the bottom 85 pct, and for the bottom 60 pct who earn only a few dollars a day, the situation can be very stressful. The cause is not due to the loss of middle class conveniences but the lack of income or assets to cover even basic needs. Some of these needs include medicine or treatment needed to save the life of a loved one, the loss of what little personal belongings one still has due to natural disasters and fires, etc.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 29 Jan 2015, 11:02:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')This only confirms my hunch that the man in the castle is telling the peasants "don't worry, be happy." I think you might be slightly out of touch with the reality of modern working-class America.


The winds are blowing mighty strong up here at the eco castle today. Being so close to the continental divide between 2 oceans, you often have these pressure differences in the dry season months between the Atlantic and Pacific that is the source of these winds.

So Loki, I reviewed your post up thread where you went into detail about the chronic depression that can set in to the unemployed and you mentioned some of the differences to say back in the 30's. Here in Panama the average salary for the working poor is around $10 a day. Not too different than in other developing countries where I have lived. Jobs and work come and go, you fall back into your extended family in hard times and share what you have when you have work. It's a permanent situation of living hand to mouth and is actually normalized in culture here. Having never tasted affluence, privilege or entitlement, never having had savings, the poor in developing countries suffer little anxiety. They suffer immense sadness when a family member dies due to lack of money for adequate health care, but there is a back ground acceptance of the situation and folks carry on..

In the US this new class of now almost permanently unemployed, many of whom had former middle class lives and had a taste of privilege and entitlement, are now in this chronic depression of not seeing any possibility of getting back what they lost. This creates a much more insidious depression having lost a lifestyle that you were once accustomed to. Aggravated by seeing many around you still plugged into jobs and still holding on to their dwindling piece of the american dream. The unemployed suffer a deep sense of loss unlike their counterparts say in developing countries who never had a concept of having something permanent in the first place.

I get all that Loki. So instead of waving our cyber wieners at each other, you accusing me of being elitist in my eco castle, and me accusing you of being blinded by your internal narrative of anger and resentment, let's instead put the focus back on the anxiety of the chronically depressed unemployed in the US. Your contribution about what you are seeing unfold up ahead is a rather bleak "forever" dark age. You discount as a fad or media trend the millennial generations increasing shared outlook of resources and do not recognize this as the beginnings of cultural adjustment. This is a pretty static and bleak permanent situation you are suggesting.

I would assume we will see some serious social upheaval at some point ahead, an increased willingness to experiment with alternative living arrangements, governments using a combination of police force and social safety nets to try to contain the instability. I see the chronically depressed unemployed and underemployed becoming vulnerable to populist uprisings. Bankers maybe being put on the guillotine.

Rest assured, I will be doing everything possible to keep friendly with the local peasantry here at Mount Totumas as I observe from my lofty perch all the turbulence down below... :) ..... just teasing you Loki.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Pops » Thu 29 Jan 2015, 11:40:29

Feeling a little doomy and somewhat anxious this morning, Dear Diary.

The front page is a bummer, nothing new, just particularly depressing today. The work on the project house is coming along as well as can be expected and I just gave several paychecks to the bank to do with what they will - and I have some more work in the pipeline...

To be honest I've been busy keeping myself busy this last year in order to avoid such feelings. I feel very exposed here compared to the old grass farm in the Ozarks or even the little mortgaged acre in the valley we had before leaving CA 10 years ago for that matter. Makes me want to go out and buy some beans.

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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 29 Jan 2015, 17:17:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
To be honest I've been busy keeping myself busy this last year in order to avoid such feelings. I feel very exposed here compared to the old grass farm in the Ozarks or even the little mortgaged acre in the valley we had before leaving CA 10 years ago for that matter. Makes me want to go out and buy some beans.

Whah.


Nobody is spared.....tethered at the end of a thin thread way up this valley sometimes we feel very exposed and vulnerable.

I do believe that one of the remedies of anxiety is finding community....one of the reasons we are all here at po.com, even if it is cyber in nature.

Hardship will ease the edge of self entitlement and make us more receptive to compromises within the group. Some cultures are way ahead of US culture in this regard.

Bad times have silver linings....
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Loki » Fri 30 Jan 2015, 01:29:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Rest assured, I will be doing everything possible to keep friendly with the local peasantry here at Mount Totumas as I observe from my lofty perch all the turbulence down below... :) ..... just teasing you Loki.

Teasing indeed. You describe how the Third World peasants you surround yourself with appear (to you) happy with their menial little lot in life. But I see no indication that you live like they do, or have ever entertained the notion. You remind me of the Bullock character in Kunstler's World Made By Hand novels.

No secret why you feel no anxiety.

This thread did make me think of a fun new term. The Boomer Doomer. Their motto: Après moi, le déluge.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 30 Jan 2015, 09:07:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
No secret why you feel no anxiety.


I suffer terrible insomnia almost every night often accompanied with anxiety. The last couple nights I have been anxious about why you don't like me Loki. Why don't you come on down here for a visit and I can take you bird watching and we can watch the hummingbirds together so that maybe we can be friends.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby careinke » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 19:31:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')
No secret why you feel no anxiety.


I suffer terrible insomnia almost every night often accompanied with anxiety. The last couple nights I have been anxious about why you don't like me Loki. Why don't you come on down here for a visit and I can take you bird watching and we can watch the hummingbirds together so that maybe we can be friends.


Are you close to Howard AFB? Maybe we should take a hop down there some day and see you.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 06 Feb 2015, 18:57:23

After a few years of extreme angst in my family brought on by wife's post natal depression & profound cultural adjustment issues, it appears we just dodged the big D. The work contract I began in April last year has been extended to a town called Katherine in the remote Northern Territory, where I lived for several years & have excellent work contacts. Our eldest daughter is in full time school this year, her little sister is pre schooling & the wife has 3 job offers as soon as she lands in the new town. Between us we will be making some pretty serious bucks, I am buying acreage on the river, she is building her culturally mandatory dream house back in the Philippines. Ups, downs & roundabouts.
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Feb 2015, 20:02:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'A')fter a few years of extreme angst in my family brought on by wife's post natal depression & profound cultural adjustment issues, it appears we just dodged the big D. The work contract I began in April last year has been extended to a town called Katherine in the remote Northern Territory, where I lived for several years & have excellent work contacts. Our eldest daughter is in full time school this year, her little sister is pre schooling & the wife has 3 job offers as soon as she lands in the new town. Between us we will be making some pretty serious bucks, I am buying acreage on the river, she is building her culturally mandatory dream house back in the Philippines. Ups, downs & roundabouts.


That's some good news SeaGypsy. Some calm water after the white water!
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Feb 2015, 20:04:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')
Are you close to Howard AFB? Maybe we should take a hop down there some day and see you.


We are in far Western Panama close to the Costa Rican border in the province of Chiriqui. If you arrive at Howard AFB you would need to take a bus to David and from their change buses to Volcan where we would pick you up. Or you could rent a 4wD car and arrive on your own. It's about a 5 hour drive from Howard..... Timo just left this morning. He was visiting us and learning about coffee. Nice times
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Re: Anxiety is stupid and a waste of time.

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 06 Feb 2015, 23:59:42

Anyone wants to visit SeaGypsy, fly to Darwin, drive 3 hours South, stop at the edge of the bush & yell out, everyone knows everyone. Katherine is the most culturally complex aboriginal area in Australia with at least 16 thriving native language groups. I envy Ibon's climate, the high mountain tropics are awesome, the highest hills around here are a few hundred meters above sea level & temperatures get over 38C every day for 9 months of the year.
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