[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'G')ravity Probe B proved this out a few years ago. Everyone already knew Einstein was correct on this subject.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'y')ou can't get a big enough effect to measure with airplanes and atomic clocks.

[Quinny]

Bending light, speeding up time, and there's little old me thinking people had simply seen the light!

Albert Einstein - Monthly Review 1949

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

[dinopello]

This here is Einstein's clock



A friend of mine was just in Bern for a conference and I was insisting that she take a video in front of the Zytglogge as she was running away from it as fast as she could. She's in the banking industry and so didn't get it at all.

[Timo]

Fascinating story, KJ. I get your ultimate antipathy toward continuing on in the military, but on the flip side, they lost. Reading true histories like this makes me regret not being more scientifically inclined, and that extends before my TBI.

Actually, come to think of it, physics actually makes a bit more sense to me now than it did in high school.

Another true story, i dropped my physics class as a sophomore because i lost my text book, and was too terrified of the teacher to ask for another one. He was a mean SOB.

Anyway, enjoy life with the grandkids. It would appear you've earned a bit of enjoyment and relaxation.

[AgentR11]

Six, you're missing the point.

The time effect *IS* measurable with planes and clocks.

The distortion of the shape of space by gravity is *NOT* measurable with planes and clocks.

Relativity isn't just about time.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'S')ix, you're missing the point.

The time effect *IS* measurable with planes and clocks.

The distortion of the shape of space by gravity is *NOT* measurable with planes and clocks.

Relativity isn't just about time.

[AgentR11]

But not with a airplanes and clocks.

[KaiserJeep]

My perspective on that experiment was more or less that of an ant. They told us what they were trying to achieve, of course - and we had to keep detailed records of phase adjustments that were inserted into the system (which we called LPAs which stood for "Local Phase Adjustments"). But my actual role as an enlisted man and ET2 (Electronics Technician 2nd Class) was one of equipment operator and equipment maintenance technician.

The fundamental idea with LORAN (LOng Range Aid to Navigation) was that you used two clocks that were tweaked to be exactly in sync. The signal from the frequency standard was "divided" until the original RF frequency (based on light emitted when Cesium atoms did a quantum phase change) was 100kHz, an RF frequency in the VLF (Very Low Frequency) band that propagated in straight lines directly from the transmitter to the receiver, through the crust of the Earth. The 100kHz RF was amplified in a series of vacuum tubes until it reached 2 megawatts peak radiated power using 8 massive vacuum tubes each which was supplied with 18,500 volts DC at about 1.3 amps. The transmitter was gated on/off so that the RF was in "pulses" which saved power and lengthened the life of the expensive $500 transmitting tubes. High power vacuum tubes do not have long lives, and need constant tweaking and tuning, thus there was a staff of ETs operating and repairing the equipment at each LORAN station.

The users ran 100kHz receivers and measured the time difference between the reception of two pulses from different transmitters. Since the RF propagated at the speed of light, each time difference value corresponded to a curve called a hyperbola. (The definition of a hyperbola in mathematics is a locus of points that are a constant difference distance from two "focal points".) We located a 100kHz RF transmitter at each of these focal points (A and B), and the receiver allowed you to overlap the two 100kHz RF pulses in an oscilloscope and read the time difference in microseconds off of the "vernier dial" that moved the traces on the 'scope.

If the time difference was say 653 microseconds, you were somewhere on the A/B 653 microsecond hyperbola on a printed LORAN chart. If you then took a second time difference between another pair of stations (A and C), and got say 701 microseconds difference, then you knew you were also on the A/C 701 microsecond hyperbola on the chart. The spot where the A/B 653 microsecond hyperbola overlaps the A/C 701 microsecond hyperbola was your actual physical position, and a simple straightedge allowed you to read the latitude and longitude from the scales printed on the edges of the "LORAN chart".

GPS is far more accurate because it is based upon "Doppler shifts" of much much higher microwave RF, easier to measure with greater accuracy. Each GPS receiver actually monitors multiple satellites - often a dozen or more - and the time when the Doppler shift goes from negative to positive on one satellite is when any particular satellite is closest to the receiver - at the maximum height above the visible horizon.

The Astro-physicist Christian Doppler's work was measuring shifts in the spectra of stars which are receding from or nearing an Earth observer - but the "Doppler phase shifts" in microwave GPS signals are another example of General Relativity - and each time you use a GPS receiver you are in a sense confirming GR yet again.

Doppler published his spectral data in 1842. Einstein published his theory of General Relativity around 1915. LORAN-A was invented by the British in WW2 (they used MF transmissions below 2 Mhz to guide bombers into Germany) and the LORAN-C system I worked on came online around 1957 and was the primary electronic navigation system for planes and ships - and submerged submarines under the ice - through about 1985 when GPS replaced it. But there were users invested in LORAN equipment (small fishing boats) who insisted that the LORAN system remain functional until the price of new solid state GPS receivers got cheaper than the surplus vacuum tube receivers the military used and then sold. One of those fishermen told me he really missed his LORAN receiver on cold nights even though the GPS was much simpler - because the older vacuum tubes generated enough heat to keep his pilothouse warm on his fishing boat!

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'T')he distortion of the shape of space by gravity is *NOT* measurable with planes and clocks.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'B')ut not with a airplanes and clocks.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'B')ut not with a airplanes and clocks.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'A')irplanes and clocks is the time dilation effect of velocity, not the space distortion effect of gravity.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'B')ut not with a airplanes and clocks.

[KaiserJeep]

Before we get too far down alternate interpretations, let me say:

1) The time dilation effect of velocity was proved by the Hafele–Keating experiment, after the effects of time dilation were noted in the apparent "errors" in calibration of the LORAN-C system. The LORAN-C system was the first time literally dozens of precise atomic clocks were transported and then compared. The experiment was performed more than once, but Hafele and Keating had to perform it one final time on a civilian airliner in order to publish results, because the LORAN-C system was also a semi-classified military system, the data captured using USCG and USAF assets was classified during the Cold War. The pictures in Wikipedia are of the final public experiment - and I don't know why they are blurry and B&W, I have many pictures taken with cheap cameras from that era which are finally focussed and in color.

2) Doppler shifts are examples of frequency shifts of objects in relative motion. It is after all only a matter of your "frame of reference" as to whether the source or observer is moving, and the paired observer or source stationary. Actually the universe, this galaxy, the solar system, and the Earth are all in motion - you must pick a "frame of reference" and describe such motion relative to yourself.

3) The pulsar observations are what prove that gravity bends electromagnetic waves. This could be hinted at but not explained by optical astronomy, there was a raging debate about how to interpret the subtle observed optical data - and pulsars were not known until the advent of radio astronomy in the 2nd half of the 20th century. All modern advances in Astronomy and almost all Astronomers are working on Radio Astronomy today - which is several centuries younger than optical astronomy, practiced by many observers from Galileo through Copernicus and used in "Celestial Navigation", which involves using a sextant and observations of celestial bodies plus an accurate clock to determine a position on Earth. The role of the Naval Observatory used to be to generate the tables of figures used in celestial navigation - but today that is a dying art, replaced by GPS. So the Naval Observatory and the "Atomic Clocks" including the master Hydrogen MASER are used for Scientific research.

4) Time dilation, Doppler shifts, and the interactions of gravity and electromagnetic waves are all described by the equations generated by Einstein and published in 1915. That is what the theory of General Relativity is about, and a true understanding of it is gained by doing the math, not by talking. I glimpsed this world when I took courses in Quantum Electronics, but I was out of my depth by then, and made a deliberate choice to focus upon circuit design (Boolean Algebra and Network Analysis) rather than the really heavy math needed to understand Quantum Physics or Astro-Physics. Thus my mathematics ended at advanced Algebra and Calculus and Differential Equations. It gets pretty intense beyond that point, and frankly the financial rewards and employment opportunities get sparser.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'T')hat is what the theory of General Relativity is about, and a true understanding of it is gained by doing the math, not by talking.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '3')) The pulsar observations are what prove that gravity bends electromagnetic waves. This could be hinted at but not explained by optical astronomy, there was a raging debate about how to interpret the subtle observed optical data - and pulsars were not known until the advent of radio astronomy in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

[KaiserJeep]

OK, the pulsar observations at radio frequencies were simply the first time that anybody measured the amount of bending of electromagnetic waves that agreed with the amount of bending in Einstein's GR prediction. The only reason we could even tell is because the wavelength of the RF used is longer and the measurements therefore more accurate than those made at much higher optical frequencies with much shorter and harder to measure wavelengths.

Granted there were already people who thought the optical data had already proved GR. Granted there remain people who still believe that even the RF measurements don't prove GR is entirely correct.

Now that we have thoroughly abused the word "proof", perhaps we could tackle something really hard such as what the meaning of "is" is. William Jefferson Clinton has of course already done that, but there still are people here on this globe who actually believe that WJC DID IN FACT have what most astronomical observers would accept as an actual sex act with Monica Lewinski.

But of course, given the timing, there remains some doubt about such an observation. There is the distinct possibility that this astronomical observation was actually made with ulterior motives, such as the sabotage of Hillary's primary campaign for 2016.

Perhaps it is in fact a CONSPIRACY to discredit Hillary as a means of diverting attention from the shadowy and hard to fathom activities of the sinister society of Freemasons....and we are being manipulated by the same group who actually assassinated JFK and faked the moon landing....