[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')t takes two minutes to find multiple camera shots showing definite perfect sniper opportunities, both before sunset & after.

Then he killed the lights.

Cops had clear shots in daylight with at least some contact with hostages & the terrorist.

The cops then had two hours of night vision which the gunman did not have.

I cannot for the life of me figure why this guy was not popped alone.

[dinopello]

A better Hollywood solution would be to pump some odorless gas in the ventilation system that knocks everyone out. Any of you watch that British series Black Mirror ? I've only watched the 1st but this event reminds me of that a bit. The use of hostage with social media and the attempted engagement with the prime minister. It's a new world for psychopaths.

[Withnail]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'A') better Hollywood solution would be to pump some odorless gas in the ventilation system that knocks everyone out. Any of you watch that British series Black Mirror ? I've only watched the 1st but this event reminds me of that a bit. The use of hostage with social media and the attempted engagement with the prime minister. It's a new world for psychopaths.

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . I have the same thoughts as SeaGypsy . . . I just don't get it.

There is more going on here than what we are being told.

I have no military training but was once a (much) better than average marksman and have a good understanding of animal and human behaviour.

They knew there was only one offender, they knew what he looked like, there was no chance he could be confused with one of the hostages and yet they shag around for seventeen bloody hours.

As has been mentioned, you can't shoot through plate glass but surely some way could have been devised to get a shot in from the kitchen, through the ceiling, aircon ducting or what all.

One shot was all that was needed and yet they go in with flash bangs and (I think) automatic fire. For mine it was a balls-up of the highest order.

Cheers.

[Shaved Monkey]

They would have a pretty good psychological profile of this guy he was known to ASIO (aussie version of CIA) and the police.
He deliberately started this directly opposite the Channel 7 live TV broadcast.
Angry man who's demands were pretty mild,he wanted a good public rant on all media and was going to release hostages every time he got a rant.
He allowed hostages to take medicine,drink water and take toilet breaks.(not really what you do if you are going to kill them???)
Pretty sure the psych negotiators were aware of what he was going to do
He was falling asleep having not killed anyone,when one of the hostages tried to get the gun of him and got shot.
In hindsight he probably only needed to wait another half hour or so.
It will be interesting to see if the people killed were killed by the police accidentally.
But they had no other choice when they heard gun shots.

Its a sad story on many levels

[Oneaboveall]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'A') better Hollywood solution would be to pump some odorless gas in the ventilation system that knocks everyone out...

[SeaGypsy]

The several comments about difficulty shooting through plate glass are wrong. Ok the first hit is dangerous, there will be deflection. But toughened glass is the commercial standard in Australia & toughened glass always has a shatter point. The correct projectile at correct velocity to break the glass, followed by a head shot, is not rocket science. The terrorist would have had about half a second to react.

(I have worked professionally with glass for many years & currently am working on a commercial art glass/ structural glass project, so I do know what I am talking about)

Somewhat surprisingly this morning the Aussie MSM is asking similar questions, with the cops angle being that they were likely to be avoiding escalation, hence the wait & tragic deaths which followed. This makes some sense, with the cops being in a damned if do damned if don't bind, but the solution I propose above I am sure was possible & would have cost only one life.

Not mentioned anywhere in the MSM is the Lindt Chocolate Company's Jewish connection, which is not widely publicised but not difficult to find online.

Next time, if there is a next time, I doubt the cops will be so hesitant to take any opportunity to wipe out the terrorist. Damned shame for the two innocent dead people.

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '
')Not mentioned anywhere in the MSM is the Lindt Chocolate Company's Jewish connection, which is not widely publicised but not difficult to find online.

[Newfie]

Re...finding a sniper with adequate equipment?

Find a deer hunter!

Any one of my deer rifles is more than up to the task.

And the ability to shoot straight ain't that hard either.

Lots of dead deer will testify to that!

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ranian police had requested the extradition of Man Haron Monis, the gunman who was shot dead in the Martin Place siege, 14 years ago but Australian authorities would not hand him over

[Shaved Monkey]

The one good thing that may come from this is to tighten gun control so people with a history of mental illness or a crime history cant have a gun licence or access to guns.

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Shaved Monkey

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he one good thing that may come from this is to tighten gun control so people with a history of mental illness or a crime history cant have a gun licence or access to guns.

[AndyA]

Maybe they were trying to send a message to all future terrorists?

[SeaGypsy]

Care to elaborate Andy?
I suspect next time something like this occurs the sniper option is far more likely than the drawn out attempt at a negotiated resolution tactic which was clearly the priority manifesto in this case. The deaths of two of the public who could virtually certainly have been saved will force a more aggressive response in future.

[Shaved Monkey]

The guy had a shot gun. (double barrell at best he had 2 shot at most)
The cops knew this and it wasnt worth risking peoples lives.
Im sure the authorities did the maths.
He didnt have an automatic weapon because you cant have them in Australia.
If you could lots of people could have died.
The guy who died had a shot gun wound to the head close range when he tackled him.
The girl who died had a heart attack and some shrapnel wounds. (they havent said if it was police or shotgun yet).

[SeaGypsy]

I could get a black market automatic short or long for a week or twos pay without a license in any capital city in oz. Maybe because even black marketeers know a Looney when they see one this guy couldnt. As scrubby said.

[AndyA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'C')are to elaborate Andy?
I suspect next time something like this occurs the sniper option is far more likely than the drawn out attempt at a negotiated resolution tactic which was clearly the priority manifesto in this case. The deaths of two of the public who could virtually certainly have been saved will force a more aggressive response in future.

[Shaved Monkey]

There was fear he had a bomb was one of the explanations for not shooting him.

[FarQ3]

Exactly right SG, the gun laws are only observed by law abiding citizens. In Australia anyone can still get access to firearms and ammunition through illegal connections if you are willing to part with the money. Tightening of gun laws has only affected honest citizens. Occasionally a police raid will turn up automatic weapons or even grenade launchers etc. none of these were obtained legally just as the firearm in this case was not obtained legally.

The terrorist claimed he was wired for explosives and also had explosives set at two alternate sites with accomplices, the first claim was not beyond him, the second claim was dismissed quite early on.

Shooting through structural glass may not only cause significant deflection (enough to miss as the terrorist did not stand close to the window) but also depending on the projectile used could have caused significant shrapnel injuries to the hostages as the projectile would likely break up on impact with the glass. Angle of glass impact needs to be uniformly zero to negate significant deflection. The damaged window would not have broken and would have become opaque after being penetrated by the first projectile. Shooting people through structural glass is nothing like shooting deer.

In any case, the tactical sniper did not get clearance to shoot.

[SeaGypsy]

If you check the footage of the moment the police went in, the first impact was some kind of ballistic device which the cops fired with a bunch of them standing in the deflection zone. The glass door immediately shatters & drops to ground. Seems they do have a specialized tool none of us here knew about maybe.

In defence of the cops decision to wait, despite having multiple chances in daylight which would have multiplied when the night vision gave a very clear upper hand; police must have placed too much kudos in their negotiator's interpretation of the terrorist's communications. They must have believed the guy could be talked down. Also they had no way of predicting the now dead cafe manager would try to jump the gunman as he appeared to dose off.

It will be months before the full report is issued, which is being undertaken at ministerial level accross the agencies involved.