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Space The Final Frontier!

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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 20:42:16

There are no class M planets to beam down to without a spacesuit.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 20:48:21

Can't terraform Mars. No magnetosphere to hold an atmosphere.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 20:49:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')our thoughts are impossible to refute, Six.


Well, no, you have a right to your opinion my vote ain't worth any more than yours is.

If you're not into space, you're not into space. That's ok.

I don't actually know one single person in my "real life" that gives a damn about the moon or new pictures of Titan and Saturn from Cassini. :lol:

Most people really do not care. I THINK.... though.... that most Americans would be happy when we finally land on Mars and we will all watch it on tv and as long as it's not a disaster and goes wrong, then nobody would be saying "it cost too much."

But yeah, few people care enough about it to ever tell their congressman to fund nasa, I understand and it's hard to win an argument about that, you have a right to what you want to see done with your tax dollars.

My best argument: if the Chinese are doing it then we have to, if we keep up with them on defense then we can't forget about space.

Also.. I know people don't really care.. but I think a lot of Americans do kind of have a sense that they miss the old space program, the shuttle is gone, we've got nothing big going on now -- I think most people agree with that, it's just not a top issue for them.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 20:54:55

We are woefully unprepared for prolonged human operations in space, especially with regard to radiation.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 20:59:02

100's of billions to even go to Mars.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 21:01:29

No colony could survive unsupported by Earth.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 21:04:20

Aw, come on Monte, you gotta think outside the box man. Or sphere, or globe! :-D
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 21:36:34

I just want to say that the Russian rocket engine thing is a national security issue.

Anyone sitting in Congress cannot in good conscience allow the Air Force to continue to be dependent on Russian engines.

For the simple reason that Putin has already threatened to cut the supply off.

This thing with Russia keeps heating up and at some point we'll lose that supply of engines, and right now the Air Force is already caught by surprise and there's an issue here even if we get try to get off the Russian engines right now.

You guys do understand that right, you can't have the Air Force reliant on engines that come from a country that appears to be one of the US national security threats.

This is why we don't rely on China for anything seriously important to the military. Because then that becomes a weapon for the other side, they can just cut the supply of that thing you need and you're screwed and the Air Force can't launch its spy satellites and stuff it needs to launch.

It's common sense, it's national security, they don't have a choice they gotta find another engine supplier you can't have the air force grounded because it was getting its engines from an adversary, it was stupid to begin with, we never should become reliant on any other nation for something so important to the military.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 06 Nov 2014, 21:54:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '1')00's of billions to even go to Mars.


And?

How much was spent on Obama's stimulus program. Wasn't that something crazy like half a trillion or a trillion bucks?

How much did Wall Street get -- what was that, another trillion dollars.

Will future generations ever give a flip about that? No. But future generations will read about the first American on Mars, won't they?

I think it's too late already though and China is going to beat us. So the first words spoken will be Mandarin, and the red communist flag planted in the Martian soil.

And we can all start threads on here about how "it's a Chinese century now."

Putin spent $40 billion dollars just on an olympics for his people. But you're saying we can't get off our asses and plant a flag on Mars and get there first? Cuz it costs too much?

The Constellation Mars mission that Obama canceled was going to cost $150 billion, not "hundreds of billions."

Iraq war cost something like $800 billion, didn't it? Wtf did we get out of that, nothin', now we just gotta go back again and fight people using the very weapons we left over there the last time.

Monte, we're always gonna have some kind of "MIC" in this country, if you don't spend it on space then that $150 billion isn't saved it's just gonna go into the military.

Maybe we'd do better to put it in space, make these nationalist rising nations want to compete with us THERE. We could actually lead the world, you know, we always do. If we do something everyone else does it.

Let's have a space race, instead of this arms race we have right now. If we spend more on space, then China would cut back on military and they'd spend more on space.

I know nobody is nationalist on this forum, but it's true, Chinese are VERY nationalist right now. And Russians are too. They just want to take us down -- let's orient that competition into something more peaceful and beneficial to everyone.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 00:51:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '1')00's of billions to even go to Mars.


And?


There's nothing there to support humans.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 00:55:26

Due to radiation, any child conceived and born in space is likely to be born sterile.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 00:56:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '1')00's of billions to even go to Mars.


And?


There's nothing there to support humans.


I don't want to dig it all up, but NASA has had plans since the 80s for how a self-sustaining moon base could work. Using materials there, on the moon.

Same goes for Mars. And now we know some of Jupiter's moons have more water in their oceans than the Earth does. Water, geothermal energy, maybe life on Europa -- what more do you want? That ice crust would protect everyone from radiation. Jupiter's magnetosphere protects from radiation too, though Europa passes out of that some times so yeah you'd have to get on the turbolift and head down to the undersea portion of the colony sometimes.

None of this is new.. except some recent and helpful tech developments, like 3d printing.

NASA already has plans for how to handle radiation, and has had them for a long time. Apollo missions had to pass through the van allen radiation belt.

I'm not even going to get into it, it would be like the 3d printer argument all over again. NASA has plans for it all Monte, already, even back in the 80s and 90s.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:00:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'I') don't want to dig it all up, but NASA has had plans since the 80s for how a self-sustaining moon base could work. Using materials there, on the moon.


Yet, no sustainable human habitat has been built on earth.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:09:08

Biological extinction due to lack of genetic diversity. (Too small a gene pool.)
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:13:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'D')ue to radiation, any child conceived and born in space is likely to be born sterile.


Okay, fine.

Colony orbiting Jupiter, within its massive magnetosphere, no problems with radiation.

Or, again, undersea colony on Europa and protected by the ice cap.

As for Mars -- all you need is martian soil covering the habitat and that's as good as the Earth's magnetosphere. For the travel there, in open space, you'd need a crew section with water shielding for the crew to go into, in the event of a coronal mass ejection headed their way.

It's not just heavy lead that protects from radiation. Soil does too. And water. And food. And ice. You could have water and waste water tanks surrounding crewed areas, and the foodstuffs, for example.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')adiation Fears Shouldn't Hold Back Mars Colonization

Mars One aims to establish a permanent human settlement on Mars in 2023, requiring no return mission.

...

For the study, Cary Zeitlin of the Southwest Research Institute and his colleagues calculated radiation exposure for a 360-day return trip to Mars to be 662 plus or minus 108 millisieverts(mSv), equivalent to the radiation of about 10,000 chest X-rays. The researchers determined that value using measurements from NASA's Mars Science LaboratoryRadiation Assessment Detector (RAD), onboardthe spacecraft while the Curiosity rover traveled to Mars in 2012. [Photos: Mars One Wants You as a Martian Colonist]

This finding from RAD indicates that for a human traveling to and living on the Red Planet, the risk of a fatal cancer resulting from radiation exposure lies within the currently accepted risk for low-Earth-orbit astronauts.

Radiation exposure during space travel

In transit to Mars, the Mars One crew will be protected from the other source of radiation — solar particles — by the structure of the spacecraft, which will provide 10 to 15 grams per square centimeter (2.3 to 3.4 ounces per square inch) of shielding, equivalent to 4 to 6 inches (10 to 15 cm) of water.

That level of protection will not suffice in the case of coronal mass ejections, solar flares and other sources of solar particle events.

Taking their cue from an onboard solar-flare forecasting and radiation measurement system the crew will retreat to a dedicated radiation shelter located in a hollow water tank, where shielding will increase to a total of 40 grams per square cm (9 ounces per square inch).

Assuming the exposure levels the RAD experienced, Mars One's crew will be exposed to 386 plus or minus 63 mSv of radiation on its 210-day journey to Mars in 2022, which is equivalent to 58 percent of the total exposure of a 360-day return trip, as calculated by the recent Science study. [Could Radiation Harm Astronauts Traveling to Mars? (Video)]

Radiation exposure on Mars

On Mars, radiation exposure is considerably less than the exposure in space. Thanks to the shielding provided by the planet itself and its atmosphere, Mars' surface receives 30 microsieverts (0.03 millisieverts) of radiation per hour during solar minimum, according a NASA technical paper entitled "Space Radiation Cancer Risk Projections for Exploration Missions: Uncertainty Reduction and Mitigation."

The research, conducted by Francis Cucinotta, chief scientist at the NASA Space Radiation Program and his colleagues, found that the exposure is reduced by about 50 percent during solar maximum because solar particles actually decrease galactic rays.

The Mars One habitat will be covered by a necessary layer of soil that provides shielding even against galactic cosmic rays. Sixteen feet (5 meters) of Martian soil provides the same protection as the Earth's atmosphere — equivalent to 1,000 grams per square cm(227.6 ounces per square inch) of shielding. The Mars One habitat can support a soil layer 36 feet (11 m) thick. If the settlers spend, on average, two hours per day outside the habitat, their individual exposure adds up to 22 mSv per year.

NASA radiation exposure graphPin It Graph showing NASA ten-year career effective dose limits based on three percent excess lifetime risk of fatal cancer.
Credit: Adapted from NCRP Report NO. 132 (2000)View full size image
Radiation exposure limits

The world's space agencies have put in place radiation exposure limits for astronauts over their careers. The agencies restrict the astronauts to serve low-Earth-orbit missions and do not consider the longer durations and different conditions of interplanetary missions.

NASA low-Earth-orbit radiation exposure limits were designed to keep the risk of radiation-induced fatal cancer below 3 percent, according to the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements report 132. The limits depend on the sex and age of the astronaut.

According to that report, young females are most susceptible to radiation-induced fatal cancer and therefore have the lowest allowed exposure. For International Space Station (ISS) operations, NASA uses the 3 percent risk with a confidence level applied to it, resulting in doses about three times lower than the acceptable limits, according to National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements report 142.

Considering a scenario where an inhabitant receives the upper limit of radiation of 449 mSv during the 210 day transit to Mars, for a female inhabitant younger than 35, the exposure amounts to about 3 percent risk for her lifetime (not including NASA ISS confidence levels). Risks are lower for women departing at a higher age, and especially for male colonists. On Mars, the risk can be managed by monitoring each crew member's radiation exposure and limiting the surface exploration time of those who are most at risk.
http://www.space.com/21813-mars-one-colony-space-radiation.html
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:22:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'B')iological extinction due to lack of genetic diversity. (Too small a gene pool.)


Mormons are kinda kooky, but mostly alright. And look at euro royals, they intermarried for centuries before they started getting deformations.

And what about genetic engineering -- that'll sure as heck be here by the time a colony ship is built.

And aren't you aware that in the Africa climate change near extinction event, homo sapiens got down to just maybe a thousand individuals left, and those were all separated bands of a hundred here and there.

That is why we don't have much genetic diversity as it is, right now, because we're descended from such a small group.

Monte -- YES it will be hard, just as those first few colonies in the Americas failed miserably, but it will work out in the end.

Yes it will be hard, small group in a hostile environment, things going wrong, the greenhouses not producing what everyone thought they would or who knows what. But it'll work out, in the end.

Was it Dino that said he or she is invested in a company that's going to 3d print human organs for transplant? I'm sorry, you all can't tell me space colonies won't be possible in fifty or a hundred years. And neither can we just do nothing between now and then, we have to start today for future generations to get there tomorrow.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:31:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'Y')et, no sustainable human habitat has been built on earth.


You mean something enclosed and closed system? You're right.

The tech and engineering needed for a space colony is the same as it would be for a biodome in the Gobi desert or on Antarctica or under the ocean, and then more too, due to the particulars of space.

While you say it can't be done though, NASA plugs along. They've got a robot astronaut up there now the Japanese made. They've got a 3d printer now too. Maybe they'll try a greenhouse, eventually, and experiment with growing serious amounts of food.

Monte if you are right and it is impossible, than are all these scientists and physicists in NASA and the Russian program all wrong? Have they already been working on living in space for the last 50 years, all for naught and it's really just all impossible?

Humanity will just have to keep at it, man, until one day in the future it works. People are stubborn like that.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 01:49:47

If for naught they wouldn't have done it right? How many people working in space program's get paid naught? Religion "keeps doing it" ie. selling tickets to heaven. You space nerds are basically just neo religionists.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby MD » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 04:50:43

It's the natural arrogance of the chief predator to assume its progeny will rule the future. Homo Spaiens needs to look beyond that and realize it will be their bio-mechanical "cold" life the will have to make the trek to other stars at sub light speed.

Either that or it won't happen for us at all, and we are just a passing breeze.

If the whole star trek universe were out there, they would be here by now.
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Re: Are humans likely to colonize space?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 07 Nov 2014, 06:31:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'I')t's the natural arrogance of the chief predator to assume its progeny will rule the future. Homo Spaiens needs to look beyond that and realize it will be their bio-mechanical "cold" life the will have to make the trek to other stars at sub light speed.

Either that or it won't happen for us at all, and we are just a passing breeze.

If the whole star trek universe were out there, they would be here by now.


Now There is some hubris lol! What makes you think ET would find our species worthy of a visit? Self important, violent, self destruct, sure lets pop over for a tourist visit!
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