[k_semler]

What is the definitive line written in stone that would cause you to pick up arms against the government? If it is "when they start taking guns", then you should have been fighting since at the latest 04/19/1993. So what is the absolute line for you that you have determined "If X happens, I will pick up arms."?

For me, it would be either the restriction of the 2nd amendment to only include bolt action firearms and semi automatic .22 rifles fed by a non-detachable tube magazine not being subject to "registration" or confinscation, "registration" of ammunition, open suspension of the constitution, or declartion of martial law. What is your absolute and unmovable line for the picking up of arms against your government? For me, it's getting damn close. Until then, I just will not register my firearms, and bury the ones I do have if nessecary.

I mean this question seriously, not as a frivious mental exersize. I am trying to get a feel of how fucked we are as a nation in the area of willing to regain freedom at any cost.

[Specop_007]

Its not going to happen. Simple as that. Everyone likes to toot their horn and all, but come down to it it aint happening.
Like I said, some 200 odd years ago we picked up arms over a 1% tax. Now? You cant get people away from the TV long enough to give a shit about anything.
And as an individual you'd be cut down right quick unless you went with very deep guerilla tactics and did precision sniper work on key targets.

Personally, be it right or wrong, I fully blame Democrats for the pussification of America. Not so much the democratic party mind you, but liberals in general.

So, my answer to your question.
When will I pick up arms?
When I'm not alone.

[0mar]

I'm with Spec on this one.

[I_Like_Plants]

I'm with Spec too.

[k_semler]

There is nothing in SpecOps007's post that I disagree with. At least there are 4 people who have the same ideal though. Any force must first start on a small scale. becore it biulds to a critical mass numbering in the millions. We are seroulsy fucked as a nation. and SpecOps007 pointed out the very reason why I believe we have become so pussified. There is virtually no hope for America. I am now wondering if there is a place in the world where pure liberty, (as envisoned by the founding fathers or modern libertarian party), is the order of the day. If there is, I would serioudly consider moving there. A post of mine from anohter board is very applicable here It is as follows:

"Land of the free, Home of the Brave," has long since died. We are only as free as we believe we are. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the citizens of the DPRK also believe they are free, but in reality they are not. We may look upon the EU with disgust as they continually limit freedoms, and "redistribute", (steal), income. Are we really that far behind them? Not really. We are not free. As an old saying goes, "Absolute power corrupts absolutly." If we as a citizen body do not retain the means or will to resist usurpations against our natural rights, then any measure the government wishes to pass will occur. We have been neutered of both of these essential elements nessecary to secure our freedoms. The current situation will only become worse.

The evidence of this is as plain as day. In 1950, was there even a need for a C&R lisence? No. You could have any firearm you wanted shipped directly to you with only a signature requred to confirm delivery of the package. How long will it be until we are requred to have a lisence to purchase any firearm? Our rights are only as strong as the weakest one, much like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. We now are left to two choices. The first choice is to continue as is, with the few remaining rights we have being slowly neutered, or to openly revolt against it. The conclusion of the WA state governer's electoral trial has put an end to the peaceful process. There is now only one option left to restore our lost liberties. The question is, are the people willing? Well, I an awnser this question for you. The awnser to this question is a deafening NO!

Our natural rights will continued to be usurped with virtually no resistance verbally, and absolutly no resistance physically. Welcome to America. I hope we are enjoying our freedoms that we are still able to enjoy. It will not be long before we have none left, and the DPRK will look "not so bad". Our right to self protection, and free assembly have been under assault since 1934, our protection against unreasonable searches and seazures has been dead since the "War On Drugs" started, the right to property has been under direct assault since the provision allowing "emminent domain" passed, the right to trial by jury has been neutered by the patriot act. The eighth amendment has been neutered since the "War on Terror" has started, (just be called an "Enemy Combatant" by the president, see where you go, {hint: it will be tropical}. The ninth and tenth amdnements might as well have never been written, and the fourteenth amendment has been neutered since the establishment of "Jim Crow" laws, and has not got much better even with desegregation. Out of the original 10 amandments, the only one that we have left is the third. We are not free. Our national motto may as well be "For The Fatherland".

And no, I am not a liberal, unless you mean by that accustion one who favors libery as originally intended. I am just completly fed up with the government, and thier tactics of limiting freedoms on the basis of improved security. History has shown that when a government assumes a power, that power is never surrendered back unto the people in a peaceful manner. We are now at the stage where we must decide where to head as a nation. Do we continue to follow the EU and DPRK, or do we restore our natural rights by whatever means prove neseccary? Unfortunatly, I think I know the awnser.

This seems like I am being seditious. Unfoturnatly, I really see no hope for us anymore. We have lost the means to fight through the 1934 GCA, and the will to fight through modern media propagation. It will never get better, only worse. I just am basically waiting for the war to start, or the above actions to come to pass before I am willing to act. What is sad, is that there was a news item today that was "Breaking News" where I actually hoped they guy would actually go through with it. What a sad state of affairs we are now in.

There is no hope left for this once great nation. Maybe if I was drunk all of the time, I wouldn't care anymore. I should try that when I'm not at work. It may be expensive, but if it helps with dealing with reality, than I am willing to do it. Our votes no longer count, we no longer have the right to defend ourselves, "Freedom" of speech and assebly have been severly curtailed. Any search for any reason is now deemed reasonable, and property can be siezed by the abuse of condemnation statues. The right to trial by jury has been neutered by the USA PATRIOT Act of 2001, and the eighth, ninth, and tenth amendments might has never been written in the first place. We are not only fucked as a nation, but the government is not supplying any lubricant, and is using sand paper condoms. I for one am sick of this shit, but nothing can be done until an army of several million is willing to fight. Enjoy what freedoms we do have left, for they will not last long.

[Specop_007]

DID HELL FREEZE OVER?!?!

2 people in a row agree with me.....

[turmoil]

ahhh... casting blame as a reflex seems to be liberating to some.

I would disagree that the domestic agenda of a single political party is at fault. With close analysis, we see that over time the pussyfication is due to the corporation gaining the rights of citizens going back to the chaos of the Civil War. In the late 1800s and early 1900s a factory-like, compulsory education system (based on the one found in the dictatorship of Prussia, which no longer exists) (that we still use today) was set up to prepare a work force to work in the actual factories. But that was not all, oh no, that was not all.

Access to guns is great if you have the motivation to use them. Access to a job that pays you good money, to entertainment and liesure, to good food for next to nothing, to affordable transportation, is enough right there to place apathy in the hearts of many.

Also, it wasn't just a 1% tax. It took years (maybe even a decade) for the colonists to get fed up.

[Barbara]

Believe it or not, I'm with Specop too.
(But the last part about the liberals... left and right wing are equally responsible, in yours or in my country).

Here a lot of people keep saying we'll take arms if Berlusconi wins again elections next year. But I'm sure it won't happen and we will find ourselves in a fascist state... again.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('stupid_monkeys', 'a')hhh... casting blame as a reflex seems to be liberating to some.

I would disagree that the domestic agenda of a single political party is at fault. With close analysis, we see that over time the pussyfication is due to the corporation gaining the rights of citizens going back to the chaos of the Civil War. In the late 1800s and early 1900s a factory-like, compulsory education system (based on the one found in the dictatorship of Prussia, which no longer exists) (that we still use today) was set up to prepare a work force to work in the actual factories. But that was not all, oh no, that was not all.

Access to guns is great if you have the motivation to use them. Access to a job that pays you good money, to entertainment and liesure, to good food for next to nothing, to affordable transportation, is enough right there to place apathy in the hearts of many.

Also, it wasn't just a 1% tax. It took years (maybe even a decade) for the colonists to get fed up.

[Doly]

I don't know of any people who have taken arms against a democratically elected goverment, even if they have gone way away from democracy afterwards (think about Hitler). I don't count military coups here, because obviously that isn't "the people" taking arms. Possibly the closest that it's ever come to it are the student revolts in the 60s, and they didn't suceed.

The problem is, an elected government can always claim that they are doing the will of the majority (whether that's true or not), and any people who disagree feel they have a lot agaist them.

Can anybody prove me wrong and show a historical case of a revolution against a so-called democracy?

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'I') don't know of any people who have taken arms against a democratically elected goverment, even if they have gone way away from democracy afterwards (think about Hitler). I don't count military coups here, because obviously that isn't "the people" taking arms. Possibly the closest that it's ever come to it are the student revolts in the 60s, and they didn't suceed.

The problem is, an elected government can always claim that they are doing the will of the majority (whether that's true or not), and any people who disagree feel they have a lot agaist them.

Can anybody prove me wrong and show a historical case of a revolution against a so-called democracy?

[shakespear1]

In my opinion, until people stop living IN the TV, nothing will change and it will only get worst. The measure of reality for majority is what they have seen on TV. Reading in the US ( which is driving the world agenda) is not a great past time. Instead the TV serves mush to divert the attention of the masses from deep reflective thinking which I think is required to understand where we are going.

I bet you if people started to meet on the porch or at the coffee shops to discuss things maybe Bush and Comp. would not have such an easy time of it.

Who today would be willing to draw parallels between Weimar Republic and the Bush's USA in the work place. NO ONE!!! Most have no clue what Weimar Republic was any way. They have seen Shindlers List and are happy to think they understand history.

Democrats are simply a different shade of Republicans. Look at Kerry and his back peddling on challanging the administration on the Downing St. Memo.

I am forever fascinated that only very few ask themselves the basic question in the US, "Why have we not WON the War on Drugs?" It just goes on and on and on. And everyone is paying and paying and paying and getting NOTHING except a HUGE BILL.

AMAZING

[I_Like_Plants]

I think a line was crossed in the late 80s/early 90s when you had the government offing people like the Branch Davidians and at that time there were also lots of IRS and ATF raids, tying up old people and stomping cats to death, and don't forget Ruby Ridge, gov't agents shooting kids and dogs etc in fact they intended to kill 'em all at Ruby Ridge and Bo Gritz reached the apex of his career, going in there to at least get someone out alive. It was a true act of bravery. Well, next was the golden age, (so far) of militias, and folks like Timothy McVeigh fighting back. Not condoning what McVeigh did, but that sure stopped the crap the government was pulling, put the data together and you can see, McVeigh probably saved lives overall. That's how bad things were getting.

[UIUCstudent01]

If Iran gets invaded, I plan to be a war protester.

If Bush gets impeached then someone else comes in and institutes a draft for the war - I'll probably start thinking along those lines....

But right now, I have the internet, fine dining, sweet treats, girls, and the sense that it won't be so when I'm 50 or earlier. So, I'm going to enjoy my life right now.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'D')ID HELL FREEZE OVER?!?!

2 people in a row agree with me.....

[I_Like_Plants]

OK now I'm going to DISAGREE with SpecOp. The Weimar Republic was an utter clusterfuck. And Hitler was a HUGE improvement. Hitler's going to war against the world was not a wise move, but the evidence says the world, AKA the bankers who call the shots, declared war on him.

Hitler brought in an appreciation of the environment and ecology, he brought in the world's first education campaign against stupid habits like smoking, he took a country where people routinely starved and froze to death in the winter, where people were raped and murdered by Communists rioting in the streets, and made it into a fairly normal society again.

Things drastically dis-improved when WWII started, between wartime conditions, and the refusal of other countries, the USA prominent among them, to take in Jewish refugees, and the tender ministrations of Dr Morell, Hitler's doctor, things got pretty damned crazy.

Add in a hysterical US and Allied press and propaganda machine, and the fact that the victors get to write the history, and it makes it seem like Hitler and his contrymen were creatures from Mars. But they were not. They were people like you and I, and given the state of American education, probably much better educated and socialized on average.

Imagine we end up with a full-on invasion from Mexico, to parallel the invasion from Eastern Europe, plus bombings, arsons, and murders in schoolyards and in the streets, by Al Queda fighters from several countries, to parallel the Communists terror operations, plus a collapse and hyperinflation of the dollar, to parallel the hyperinflation of the Mark. Then imagine a moderate, say John McCain, who's been a POW, to parallel Hitler's fine and brave WWI credentials, telling us that if elected, he'll clean things up, make food affordable again, end terror in the streets. Who would not vote for him?

This is what's meant by those who don't remember history being condemned to repeat it. Those who swallow the consored, basically fictional, version of history bandied about today are condemned to go smiling into a repeat of what really happened.

[highlander]

Interesting perspectives.
I won't unless I have to. Instead i choose to do things like not fly, make biodiesel from waste vegetable oil, get and stay out of debt, ignore pettiness from petty bureaucrats, etc. I'm keeping a low profile. All they have to do is leave me alone.

[Rickenbacker]

lol Ive spent the last few days hammering speccy, but he's right on this one.
Shame Im in england where the best weapons we can get hold of are kitchen utensils and paintball guns. Martial law in UK would have to be obeyed, theres only farmers with shotguns for killing foxes. All they would have to do is control the coast, fortress UK.
I'm not too worried, our police are nowhere near the wankers of US, if the videos of protests are anything to go by. The worst our lot get is stopped and searched and a clout round the earhole with a truncheon. Considering you get:

- rubber bulletted
- tear/cs gas paintballed
- wooden bulletted
- shot properly
- herded up and put in asbestos pens (NY during bush conference)
- sound cannoned (again NY)
- arms broken with nunchuks
- arrested
- beat up

and probably more, just for PEACEFUL protesting, I daren't even imagine the scenes if there was a violent protest. Would make tianamen look like an episode of barney.

[I_Like_Plants]

I venture to say that most of the revolutionaries in history started out only wanting to be left alone.

Solzenitzyn (sp?) started out only wanting to be left alone, he was a loyal army officer, and dreamt of writing a history of his country's communist revolution when WWII was over. He wrote to a friend during the War, and they exchanged some humorous comments about "the man with the moustache", Stalin. It was the kind of harmless griping that Patton's fiercely loyal soldiars probably wrote about him - it was not a comment on their loyalty or their willingness to fight to the end. Those comments landed Solzenitzyn in prison.

[turmoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'Y')es, but what was once a slow slide down the hill of pussification has become a headlong run. You can blame liberals, such as ACLU as one example, for this headlong run down the hill.