[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')What we don't need are more ... brilliant minds.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'S')teve Jobs and Einstein were brilliant minds.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'S')teve Jobs and Einstein were brilliant minds.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'N')arz wrote:
"Service jobs are the future. Stuff, stuff & more stuff is not sustainable."

The facts are exactly the opposite, which is my entire point: The unsustainable part is the cheap fossil energy that makes stuff of value, allowing us to do graphics and dance in the subway.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')We had the Renaissance without fossil fuels.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'Y')ou talk about facts as if you have some. It's all speculation that we're all going to go back to being farmings cause fossil fuels will go into decline & we'll just panic & technology/culture/society will retreat back into some Amish paradise or MadMax scenario (depending on your kink)

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'T')he irony is that we in the US are now (due to our energy slaves) quite capable of having just about everyone work less (at whatever their job) and write poetry but instead people work long hours for little pay as Walmart greeters. That wasn't in Adams progressional all.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'M')y question is simple, where does the money come from to pay the barber and the travel agent and cell phone bill?

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'I') think we've become so efficient at supplying the basic needs (and luxury items for that matter) of everyone we simply do not need more makers.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'J')ust is what it is, if robots and AI can do all the work then people don't have to anymore.

[ralfy]

The money used to pay for services comes from increasing credit from banks and other financial institutions that control the global economy:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... world.html

The reason why various services are said to have value is because the global economy itself is measured in terms of money.

That money is used as part of consumer spending for a growing global middle class:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-22956470

The present middle class can only sustain its living standards by selling to that expanding market, which in turn requires increasing amounts of material resources and energy.

[Simon_R]

Hi Pops

I am nearly convinced, but you seem to be drawing the conclusion that
the rise in spending on services is a result of cheap energy.

Could this not also be reflecting a consumer trend. We still need stuff
but people prefer services than stuff ?
Maybe because they cannot afford the stuff.

I agree that provisions of non essential products and services are
reliant on cheap energy, but I am not convinced that cheap energy
predicates these services.

however I do not have a different theory to yours

As for the renaissance, that was the sacking of constantinople
(a real 'doh' moment) and cross pollinization of ideas, nothing to do
with energy.

Can we do away with turnips, I saw a horse drawn beetroot planter, so if we
are to progress to a bucolic paradise, I would be gratefull if we could
go the beetroot .... route

Simon

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'P')ainting, poetry and music are strictly speaking "making" things so I guess Adams would agree with that value premise of the thread.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 't')ry responding to my idea. Start with disproving the link I've drawn between the increase in FF use, population and the service economy.

[Simon_R]

If poetry can be classed as 'making things' why cannot making 'a profit' be classed as making something.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Simon_R', 'H')i Pops

I am nearly convinced, but you seem to be drawing the conclusion that
the rise in spending on services is a result of cheap energy.

Could this not also be reflecting a consumer trend. We still need stuff
but people prefer services than stuff ?

[Narz]

I'm still confused as to why a service economy is so lamentable.

Services make people happier than goods, services don't rot in landfills. Do we really want to go back to the era of slaving away in factories. These are jobs for robots, as sixstrings said, not people. Let robots due the gruntwork so humans can focus on art & grander things. No one wants to live a drab life like the Amish unless it's the only option.

Ok, robots use power, our current #1 power source is fossil fuels, therefore our only option is to go back to doing everything manually in preparation for powerdown. I used to be sold on the math there (somehow) & I still see a value in preparation & a satisfaction in being able to do certain things without machinery. But to say it's definitely gonna be the future & soon no one will have time for anything but making sh!t... well, ok, it's a prediction, like 99% of those on peakoil.com I suspect it will be wrong.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'W')hen the energy slaves are gone someone's going to have to go back to work.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'S')orry if I came off as a jerk. It's just, imo, you're not really open to discussion yourself.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I')t used to take a computer the size of a bunkbed all sorts of energy to calculate simple addition, now a computer can do a million calculations a second on less energy than a lightbulb.