[Serial_Worrier]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kiwichick', 'a')gent r 11

nz is already producing 70% of it's electricity from renewables and aiming for 100%

they can easily go to 100% with more geothermal and adding wave or solar

one of nz's biggest assets is that it is hundreds of kilometres from the nearest land

however it's economy has a large % of tourism in it and that will collapse

[kiwichick]

who is sustainable in the 1st world without trade?

i believe most countries will only be sustainable at lower population levels

for nz maybe 1 million (approx 22% of current population)

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kiwichick', 'i') believe most countries will only be sustainable at lower population levels

for nz maybe 1 million (approx 22% of current population)

[Mesuge]

"Greenparty" means a lot of different things in many places, e.g. in the US it's almost an anti establishment party, contrasting that with many places in Europe, where they sit in government/parliament as subservient lackies for various NATO bombardments, embargoes on foreign civilians and what have you. Not familiar with the Aussie/NZ situation that much, given the fact several prime time channels ran PO and cheap energy crash related programmes, it could be marginally better over there in terms of societal thermometer gauge not completely broken beyond repair..

[kiwichick]

prajeshbhat

i don't think too many kiwi's want to live in a slum


tech advances mean continuing reduction in the demand for manual labour

therefore we don't need as many people

which will be handy as we live on a planet with a limited amount of resources,
something i suspect you have noticed in india

[prajeshbhat]

Ironically resource constraints doesn't lead to voluntary population control. Poor people tend to have a lot of children. It's a vicious circle.
Check out the countries with highest population growth rates.


# 1 Zimbabwe: 4.31 %
# 2 Niger: 3.643 %
# 3 Uganda: 3.576 %
# 4 Turks and Caicos Islands: 3.485 %
# 5 Burundi: 3.462 %
# 6 Gaza Strip: 3.422 %
# 7 United Arab Emirates: 3.282 %
# 8 Ethiopia: 3.194 %
# 9 Burkina Faso: 3.085 %
# 10 Zambia: 3.062 %

Right now the population is declining in or slowing down in OECD nations. It would be interesting to see what happens if a few 1st world countries slip into 3rd world status. Will it lead to a second population explosion? Like I said, it's not going to be pretty.

[ROCKMAN]

Apparently even the green-as-can-be kiwis have a growing appetite for oil…156,000 sq. miles of leases. Steady (state) as she goes:

New Zealand Energy and Resources Minister Simon Bridges launched Wednesday the country's third annual Block Offer for oil and gas exploration, comprising eight onshore and offshore release areas, according to an announcement posted on the official website of the New Zealand Government. The blocks - covering a total of 156,371 square miles (405,000 square kilometers) - available for bidding in 2014 includes three onshore blocks in the East Coast Basin, Taranaki Basin and West Coast Basin, while the offshore blocks on offer are in the Reinga-Northland Basin, Taranaki Basin, New Caledonia Basin, Pegasus-East Coast Basin, and Great South-Canterbury Basin. "This year's Block Offer is supported by comprehensive data pack, which includes some previously unavailable data.

[Graeme]

I'd like to review briefly what a steady state economy means according to wiki.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') steady state economy is an economy of relatively stable size. It features stable population and stable consumption that remain at or below carrying capacity. The term typically refers to a national economy, but it can also be applied to the economic system of a city, a region, or the entire planet. Note that Robert Solow and Trevor Swan applied the term steady state a bit differently in their economic growth model. Their steady state occurs when investment equals depreciation, and the economy reaches equilibrium, which may occur during a period of growth.


The steady state economy is an entirely physical concept. Any non-physical components of an economy (e.g., knowledge) can grow indefinitely. But the physical components (e.g. supplies of natural resources, human populations, and stocks of human-built capital) are constrained and endogenously given. An economy could reach a steady state after a period of growth or after a period of downsizing or degrowth. The objective is to establish it at a sustainable scale that does not exceed ecological limits.

Economists use gross domestic product or GDP to measure the size of an economy in dollars or some other monetary unit. Real GDP – that is, GDP adjusted for inflation – in a steady state economy remains reasonably stable, neither growing nor contracting from year to year. Herman Daly, one of the founders of the field of ecological economics and a critic of neoclassical economics,[1] defines a steady state economy as

...an economy with constant stocks of people and artifacts, maintained at some desired, sufficient levels by low rates of maintenance "throughput", that is, by the lowest feasible flows of matter and energy from the first stage of production to the last stage of consumption."[2]

A steady state economy, therefore, aims for stable or mildly fluctuating levels in population and consumption of energy and materials. Birth rates equal death rates, and saving/investment equals depreciation.

[Perfector]

Can modern capitalism even function with a stable/slowly declining population? Japan seems to be the only such country, and it is struggling. Capitalism seems to reflexively push politicians and business leaders to promote population growth.

[EdwinSm]

According to figures provided by Population Reference Bureau (http://www.prb.org/), in 2012-2103 Germany's population declined by 0,2%.

It seems that most of Europe is near a steady state regarding population growth.

It is just that the USA seems to be behaving more like a under-developed country when it come to population growth (0,5% or 1 581 000 extra inhabitants per year).

Having said that, the European economy is not doing so well, so you many think the Germany is "the exception that proves the rule".

[ralfy]

From what I know, the global capitalist system requires a growing global middle class, and if markets become saturated, a growing population. These will also require increasing energy and resource consumption funded through more credit creation.

[sparky]

.
New Zealand is an economic dependency of Australia ,
somewhat like Tasmania minus the honesty
their military is relying on Australia to protect them ,
their medical system is to take the plane and get the Aussies taxpayer to foot the bill
their unemployment control is to cross the sea and register on the Aussie dole

Some self reliance ,dole bludgers too lazy to steal

[Perfector]

Japan, and to a lesser extent Germany, are somewhat averse to mass immigration. New Zealand on the other hand is a nation of migrants. Politicians there, prodded on by business, will have no hesitation in ramping up immigration to keep the population rising.

We see the same thing here in Australia where government has raised immigration to extraordinarily high levels to keep the population growth at its historic average of 1.6-1.8%. Which isn't a good idea, but of course they can't see this.