[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hvacman', 'S')o that hydrogen site touting the superiority of H2 reports it requires between 32-60 kWh to make one kg H2, which will take you 81 miles. This is 1.35-2.5 miles/kWh. Current-generation EV's like the Leaf, Volt, and Model S, already get 3-4 miles/kWh - double to triple the efficiency of electrically-produced H2 - without even considering compression and distribution inefficiencies of H2 plus costs to build its new infrastructure. EV's have their own limitations, but H2 is a dead-end. Hydrogen will drive change alright - all that change right out of our pockets, wallets, and bank accounts into the big energy providers hands. How stupid do they think we are?

[Graeme]

First affordable hydrogen fuel-cell powered mass transport vehicle under development?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')irmingham City University is set to showcase the concept and design behind what could prove to be the world's first affordable hydrogen fuel-cell powered mass transport vehicle.

In a partnership with UK motorsport entrepreneur and manufacturer Spencer Ashley and the DYPDC centre for automotive research in Pune, the University's pioneering project will be unveiled in India later this week at the Auto Expo Motor Show.

In development since last summer at Walsall-based manufacturer Spencer Ashley Ltd, the steer for the collaborative project stemmed from the Indian government's Hydrogen Highway initiative which aims to ensure that at least 1 million hydrogen-fuelled vehicles hit the roads by 2020. The model, along with plans of a Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (otherwise known as the 'Millennium Tuk-Tuk' hydrogen car), will be showcased at the event and could provide a primary mode of public transport in India in the future.

The joint collaborative project between the University, DYPDC and Spencer Ashley has been set up to produce a four-wheeled replacement for the abundant auto-rickshaw vehicle, affectionately known as the Tuk Tuk utility vehicle.

[Graeme]

Toyota: Hydrogen cars have edge on electric cars

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oyota sounds like it has come up with a novel way to lure car buyers into considering the first fuel-cell car it plans to start selling next year.

Sure, hydrogen fuel-cell cars will cost significantly more than conventional cars and there are few stations to fuel them -- none in many cities. But what Toyota appears to have discovered is that when they are compared to the other zero-emissions alternative, battery-powered electric vehicles, or EVs, fuel cells suddenly don't look so bad.

Toyota plans to start selling a zero-emission hydrogen fuel-cell powered car in the U.S. next year, right along with similar models from Honda and Hyundai. The new model made its U.S. debut at the Consumer Electronics Show in January.

"It really provides all the benefits of a plug-in EV without the range anxiety and without the time it takes to recharge it," says Bill Fay, group vice president of the Toyota division, in a interview at the Chicago Auto Show.

Since most battery-powered cars are limited to about 100 miles per charge, the term "range anxiety" has come to mean the worries that owners face about running out of juice before they can limp home or to a public charging station. Hydrogen cars can go hundreds of miles on a fillup, and the fillup only takes about five minutes, Fay points out.

[hvacman]

Let's see - Toyota believes hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will have no range anxiety, compared to EV's.

OK - compare the current H2 fueling station map....
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2008_fotw523.html

....with the current Tesla EV supercharger station map

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Which driver do you think will have less range anxiety?

Finally, see an actual Tesla supercharger station in Mt Shasta, CA

http://www.flickr.com/photos/109938436@N06/11091222866/

The epitome of simplicity. This is how simple it is to add fast-charge DC stations - they can go right into a a quiet corner of a Best Western parking lot, like this one. All it takes to put in a commercial FCDC station is a conventional 480 volt service and distribution panel, the chargers, and a place to park. Probably costs $200K to put five chargers - zero extra foot print. No compressors. No tanks. No explosion hazards. How much will a single H2 station cost to install, not to mention the fuel cost? Do you think the Best Western will want one in their parking lot?

As Elon is demonstrating, a viable fast charge DC EV charging network can be installed for a small fraction of the $ that an equivalent H2 fueling system. Plus, most EV charging does and will continue to happen at night at home, where it is cheap, easy, and convenient. FCDC is only for long-distance driving. EVERY H2 vehicle will have to frequently go to refuel at an H2 station just like a gas-powered car.

I continue to see zero economic, environmental, or energy-efficiency logic for using H2 now or in the future.

[Graeme]

You are wrong. There is a growing demand for hydrogen for use in many sectors including transport, energy storage and power generation.


Demand for Hydrogen for Fuel Cells and Other Emerging Markets Will Climb Sharply Through 2030, Forecasts Navigant Research

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')istorically, the hydrogen energy market has been centered on the petroleum refinery and chemical manufacturing sectors. Since 2011, however, interest in hydrogen for the energy storage market, combined with the rise in usage of hydrogen in the fuel cell sector, has seen increased utilization of hydrogen outside of petroleum refining and chemical manufacturing. This growth is expected to accelerate sharply over the next 16 years. Click to tweet: According to a recent report from Navigant Research, hydrogen consumption for non-traditional applications (i.e., outside the petroleum and chemical sectors) will grow from 168 million kilograms (kg) in 2013 to nearly 3.5 billion kg in 2030.

“While hydrogen has historically been a valuable commodity gas, today, it is increasingly recognized as an important fuel and energy storage vector of the future,” says Kerry-Ann Adamson, research director with Navigant Research. “Increased energy demand, requirements to use renewable energy, growth in the cleantech backup power market, and the deployment of a growing number of fuel cell-powered vehicles in the transport sector will all push overall demand for hydrogen as a fuel to unprecedented levels.”

The stationary sector, primarily focused on providing backup and prime power to mobile telecommunications base stations, is expected to lead hydrogen demand through 2030, according to the report. This is due to the current levels of adoption, which are much higher than in any other sector, alongside a healthy projected growth rate for fuel cell power stationary systems. China and a number of African countries are already pushing for the adoption of fuel cells for their telecommunications networks, a high percentage of which run off hydrogen.

[Graeme]

Hydrogen Fuel Gets Boost From New, Inexpensive Materials

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ydrogen-powered transport may not compete with battery-electric transport at the moment (doesn’t even come close), but hydrogen could become useful in a few decades if research and development for this clean energy option. Below is the latest good news regarding hydrogen fuel research, reposted from Planetsave.

While hydrogen fuel production — via the splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen using sunlight — has long been prominent in the public imagination, the reality is that the technology is still quite a ways off from being economical. That gap between the economical and the reality is narrowing though, as new research from the University of Wisconsin-Madison shows.

Researchers there have succeeded in achieving a new record (with regard to oxide-based photoelectrode systems) solar-to-hydrogen conversion efficiency of 1.7% — while using relatively inexpensive new materials.

[Graeme]

Hyundai to present hydrogen-powered SUV concept in Geneva

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he South Korean car manufacturer plans to wow visitors at the international car show with a new concept car powered by a next-generation hydrogen fuel cell engine.

The Intrado, which will be unveiled to the public at the 2014 Geneva Motor Show, is directly inspired by aviation engineering, in terms of both the technology and the materials used. The body panels, for example, are made of shock-absorbing ultra-light steel, while carbon fiber is used for the doors, the engine hood and the tailgate.

But the Intrado's real innovation is found under the hood. The vehicle runs on a hydrogen-powered fuel cell engine with a 36kWh Li-ion battery. As a result of this technology, the concept car can be recharged in a matter of just minutes and has a range of 600km. Moreover, the engine only emits water, meaning that it is completely environmentally friendly.

[Graeme]

Solar Hydrogen Trends Inc. Invents Groundbreaking 100% Carbon Free, Clean Air Hydrogen Reactor

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Solar Hydrogen Trends, Inc. develops innovative breakthrough technology with the world’s first hydrogen reactor for production of unlimited hydrogen; reactor uses water as main fuel and is 100% carbon free! “Endless fuel from water…”

Menlo Park based technology firm Solar Hydrogen Trends, Inc. (http://www.solarhydrogentrends.com) today announced that it has revolutionized the world of energy production with their invention of the world’s first hydrogen reactor for the production of unlimited hydrogen (patent pending). The hydrogen reactor uses water as a main fuel and is 100% carbon free.

The groundbreaking technology can be used as hybrid solution for energy savings up to 95% when coupled with coal, natural gas, gasoline, biofuels, diesel power plants or incinerators (three to five times cheaper than coal power plants – two to three times cheaper than nuclear, WITHOUT hazards to the environment). In addition, the reactor can be coupled for production of amplified energy output with Hydropower, Solar or Wind farms in peak hours.

Jack Aganyan, Founder and President of Solar Hydrogen Trends commented that “This is a critical step in the development of alternative, clean air energy. As the nation continues its drive to reduce air pollution and mine more cost-effective energy production, we are excited to launch our groundbreaking hydrogen reactor, which provides a formidable solution to these green initiatives. We believe this technology is of national strategic importance. It is clean, efficient, scaleable, and can help the dollar gain back its strength.”

[Graeme]

Mantra Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Prototype is Cheaper

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') different kind of hydrogen fuel cell, developed by Mantra, could make these vehicles cheaper by eliminating the most expensive part of the fuel cell, the PEM. Mantra’s MRFC (mixed-reactant fuel cell) was developed at the University of British Columbia, and runs whatever hydrogen-rich fuel and an oxidant in a single stream. The resulting hydrogen fuel cell is simpler and more durable, and takes up less space than the conventional hydrogen fuel cell.

This year, Mantra is developing a prototype hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, based on the mixed-reactant fuel cell, the first time it has been put into an automotive application. Using non-rare-earth-metal catalysts and a more energy-dense design, the Mantra fuel cell vehicle promises to be cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient, than conventional hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

[Logic]

There are lots of great applications for fuel cells.
I just don't think cars is one of them.
Fleet vehicles perhaps, but the cost of the infrastructure, low efficiency, lack of cargo room and performance just don't spell 'big success' to me.
Due to the added inconvenience and cost of charging away from home I personally would not buy one.
However that certainly doesn't mean no one will.

[hvacman]

Quote from "ground-breaking" Solar Hydrogen Trends Inc's website -

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n input of 500 watts, the mini reactor produces an output of 2,797 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (electricity equivalent 221.5 kWh), at cost of $1.80

[Graeme]

Quad-generation project uses fuel cell to produce power, heat, hydrogen, and CO2 for greenhouse in Canada

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first renewable energy quad-generation project to be realised for a greenhouse operation using fuel cell technology is about to get under way in Greater Vancouver. The ground-breaking for the facility will take place on 2 April at Village Farms’ greenhouse in Delta, British Columbia.

Greenhouse operator Village Farms International is collaborating with Quadrogen Power Systems, FuelCell Energy, and the National Research Council of Canada (NRC) in a C$7.5 million (US$6.8 million) project that will enable the commercial production of renewable heat and food-grade CO2 that will benefit the Village Farms greenhouse in Delta, along with electricity and hydrogen for additional commercial markets.

For the last 10 years Village Farms has been using renewable landfill gas as an additional or alternative heat source to natural gas in its Canadian greenhouse facilities. The heat is supplied from a cogeneration power plant that is owned and operated by Maxim Power Inc, located on the Village Farms property.

‘Cogeneration is a feel-good success story, because it takes landfill methane gas that would have been burned onsite at the landfill, and instead turns a waste product into a viable heat source that is safe for people and plants,’ explains Jonathan Bos, Development Director at Village Farms.

He continues: ‘This new project is even more advanced and cutting edge, as it will be the first demonstration of not only heat supply for the greenhouse, but also food-grade CO2 that is generated from the landfill gas via a fuel cell.’

[Graeme]

The Future of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars: Will They Come Down in Cost?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')nergy efficiency mandates like California’s (which requires that by 2025, at least 1.5 million new vehicles on the road produce zero emissions) are poised to change the future of vehicle production. Yet hydrogen fuel cells (HFC) are known for their high price tag, which can be off-putting to many consumers and outright cost-prohibitive to some. As new legislation continues to appear, will these cars come down in cost and become a more viable option for eco-conscious consumers?

Some automakers have planned incentives to attract hydrogen fuel cell buyers. Hyundai plans to include free fuel in its $499 per month Tucson leases, and many HFC leases offer free maintenance and service. This reduces the buyer’s overall operating expenses and can seal the deal for some.

Several state-level incentives further help make these cars more affordable for buyers. For example, California allows HFC vehicle drivers to use high-occupancy lanes even if no other passengers are in the car. And at the federal level, consumers can receive a tax rebate of $4,000 through Dec. 31, 2014, with the purchase of a hydrogen fuel cell car, among other tax credits.

HFC Cars Coming Down in Cost

Automakers like Hyundai are optimistic about the chance to make tomorrow’s hydrogen fuel cell cars cheaper. At present, the main factor in the HFC vehicle’s high cost is the expense of the battery. As automakers find ways to make the batteries for these cars for less, they will be able to drop the price on the vehicles. Hyundai also hopes to be able to use HFC technology in electric vehicle cars, thinking that it will be cheaper in the long run to make HFC batteries than it will EV batteries.

[hvacman]

From the Hyundai article - $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')t present, the main factor in the HFC vehicle’s high cost is the expense of the battery.

[Graeme]

My understanding is that they don't but there are hydrid FCV/battery cars. It appears that they are indeed referring to the FC as a "battery". This will be an interesting battle between pure FCV and pure battery cars. At this point, I suspect that both will have a niche in transport - battery for short runs in town and FC for longer journeys. Perhaps we'll see a combination of the two eventually.

Will Americans Buy Toyota Motor Corporation's Hydrogen Car?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')oyota (NYSE: TM ) is betting that at least a few Americans will be willing to pay for a car that runs on hydrogen. The company is expected to launch a production version of its FCV Concept vehicle in Japan, the U.S., and Europe next year.

The FCV Concept is powered by a hydrogen fuel cell. Essentially, it's an electric car that extracts its energy from compressed hydrogen, instead of a battery. Advocates of fuel-cell-powered cars say they're just as clean as battery-electrics -- their only "exhaust" is water vapor -- but they can be smaller and lighter in weight, because they don't have heavy battery packs.


But as Fool contributor John Rosevear explains in this video, Toyota is betting that fuel-cell prices will come down considerably in just a few years -- if the technology catches on.

A transcript of the video is below.

Are you ready for this $14.4 trillion revolution?
Let's face it, every investor wants to get in on revolutionary ideas before they hit it big. Like buying PC-maker Dell in the late 1980s, before the consumer computing boom. Or purchasing stock in e-commerce pioneer Amazon.com in the late 1990s, when it was nothing more than an upstart online bookstore. The problem is, most investors don't understand the key to investing in hyper-growth markets.

[hvacman]

Now that I think about it, assuming that a "fuel cell" actually has multiple fuel-electric conversion devices inside to create useful volt/amp levels, 'battery" is actually the correct term. In the more traditional electrochemical storage world, "batteries" are made up of multiple "cells" connected in series, parallel, or both, to create desired volt/amp characteristics and amp-hr storage.

I still am hugely skeptical about mobile H2 fuel cell (or FC "battery") viability - economically or from an energetic basis - as compared to storage-battery-based EV's. That said, I believe stationary natural gas FC's have tremendous potential. Sierra Nevada Brewery recently installed a 1 MW NG fuel cell to run their main brewery, using the waste heat for their processes. Between the FC and their PV system, they average about 90% self-generation. Great beer, too:)

http://www.sierranevada.com/brewery/about-us/sustainability (you will have to enter your birth date to enter their site because of some ABC rules)

[Graeme]

SRS makes breakthrough in hydrogen batteries

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')esearchers at Savannah River National Laboratory in Aiken are developing new fuel production methods that will make hydrogen batteries cheaper – a super-battery technology that could keep portable electronic and communications devices charged as much as four times longer than traditional batteries.

In a research project funded by the U.S. Department of Energy, the Aiken County lab is researching new ways of producing aluminum hydride-powered hydrogen batteries that could continuously generate electricity as long as it they are provided with the futuristic fuel. It’s a technology that could revolutionize personal electronics.

In the past, the new cells were considered strictly for military use. Now, researchers are eying ways to make the power available to the public.

[Graeme]

California Plans For A Hydrogen Future

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Governor’s Office of Business and Economic Development for the State of California (nicknamed “GO-Biz”) held an event at the Toyota USA Automobile Museum yesterday. The topic was “Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles and Infrastructure in Your Neighborhood: A state and local workshop.” After opening remarks, approximately 150 attendees from automotive manufacturers, state and local government, fire departments, technology suppliers, molecule providers and a smattering of media outlets listened to a keynote speech from Hector De La Torre, a member of the California Air Resources Board (CARB), followed by two panel discussions and closing remarks. Attendees then had the opportunity to drive five examples of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles on public roads near Toyota’s Torrance headquarters.

The thrust of the meeting was to address the chicken-and-egg status of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Until there’s enough infrastructure to support hydrogen refueling, consumers will be unlikely to embrace the technology. Until consumers are ready to embrace the technology, manufacturers will be unable to achieve the economies of scale that will bring prices to reasonable levels. On the infrastructure side, investors are unwilling to build and install fueling stations until there’s more demand. That’s the chicken-and-egg scenario.

The California Fuel Cell Partnership seeks to bring all of the interested parties together to make an omelet. Because the technology is unfamiliar to many city managers, zoning authorities, inspectors and fire officials, they are sometimes unclear about whether to enforce the same rules on hydrogen fueling stations as they do on gasoline and diesel stations. By opening lines of communication, the CAFCP hopes to facilitate more rapid opening of proposed new stations, and appropriate adjustment to existing local regulations.

Currently, California is the leader in hydrogen fueling. Still, the network of stations is sparse. According to Hector De La Torre’s speech, there are 9 public stations currently in operation in California today, with 19 additional stations scheduled to open in the next 18 months. There are 200 fuel cell vehicles operating on California roads, including cars, busses and heavy-duty trucks. Last May, the US Department of Energy launched H2USA, a public-private partnership devoted to expanding the hydrogen fueling infrastructure, but despite the nationwide scope, California remains the focal point.

Five auto manufacturers were represented on the Automotive OEM Panel, which was moderated by Bloomberg's Alan Ohnsman. General Motors GM +2.49% sent Alex Keros, Manager and Senior Project Engineer. Honda’s Manager of FCEV Marketing Stephen Ellis, a visible and vocal proponent of hydrogen, represented his company. Fuel Cell Engineer Kevin Lee spoke on behalf of Hyundai. Ronald Grassman, Mercedes-Benz’s US FCEV Operations General Manager, stood in for the German brand, and Craig Scott, National Manager of Toyota’s Advance Technologies Group, represented the host company. Despite the highly competitive nature of the automotive industry, a surprising level of collegiality and cooperation reigns among the OEMs’ hydrogen fuel cell efforts. For example, manufacturers have collaborated to create a standardized filling valve, simplifying the issue of compatibility from filling station to filling station and vehicle to vehicle. The hydrogen filling station adjacent to Toyota’s national headquarters in Torrance welcomes all brands of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles for refueling. The OEMs recognize that in order for the technology to flourish, barriers for suppliers to service all brands with hydrogen must not be erected.

[Logic]

This is why I feel hydrogen should first be rolled out as fleet vehicles. Infrastructure requirements will be much less and easier to implement.
Unfortunately hydrogen stations will end up being paid for by the taxpayer, not the vehicle manufacturers or users.

It is a shame CARB has this bias towards hydrogen and away from electric. Where much of the infrastructure already exists.

On an interesting note, this thread is now 10 years old

[Timo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Logic', 'O')n an interesting note, this thread is now 10 years old