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The GM-Firestone Streetcar Myth
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The GM-Firestone Streetcar Myth
by JohnDenver » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 21:39:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')ure...like when General Motors and Firestone banded together to destroy excellent urban transit systems throughout the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s—so that people would be forced to convert to automobiles and create growth for the automobile, tire, and petroleum industries?
This description of the events is completely wrong, in every respect. GM and Firestone were not involved in such a conspiracy. The transit systems weren't excellent. Nothing happened "throughout the U.S." People weren't forced to convert; they did it on their own initiative.
The facts on this urban myth are given here.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his story persists largely because of the natural human tendency to yearn for `the good old days', which are largely a figment of our collective imaginations. There are a lot of people who think that the dismantling of the old rail systems was a mistake, and it is much more comfortable to believe that some monolithic `they' did it, rather than to face the fact that it was the result of the individual decisions of thousands of people who chose to use their cars.
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by Wildwell » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 22:33:07
You're treading on dangerous ground there John. There are elements of truth to the story. There was no doubt in the 1950s, the UK and US governments acted to destroy the rail systems – on face value just by subsidising huge road building programs. But it does go deeper that - there was a lot of back of the envelope calculations done in Beeching days in Britain to close ‘unprofitable’ lines and a concerted attempt to timetable branch line trains not to meet main line connections, that’s a fact, it happened The Beeching cuts axed half the network and got rid of ½ million jobs – the savings were a paltry £7m. And guess who was building the roads at the time? Transport minister Earnest Marples also owned a major road construction firm, Marples Ridgeway.
There are lots of stories, some with truths, others myths. But US and the UK did destroy their rail systems by a concerted top down policy attempt, no other countries did this in anything like the same way, Switzerland and Japan have closed hardly any of their lines and improved them. There are as many miles of track now as there was in the 1950s world wide, and over 3000 KMs of new line are being built in Europe right now. Here, there are various smear campaigns which go on in the media, and by different groups, which have done for the last 40 years. Why was this all done? Certainly in Britain it could be argued to break the unions which, along with the miners and steel workers gave the government a bloody nose on a number of occasions. There are other political and strategic reasons as well. A conspiracy is a bit strong but there are attempts to steer the situation in certain ways, no question about that.
Some oil companies have campaigned against climate change initiatives, indeed so does the Bush government. Most, if not all of this is purely down to the economic interests of certain individuals. Just last week someone resigned over changing official information to de-sex climate information. I think its very naïve to suggest a website ‘tells the truth’. There are an awful lot of websites that pretend to tell the truth, it’s just those with the facts at their finger tips and bother to do the research know different.
Anyway, if you want to have a look at a conspiracy, have a look at this.
http://www.bilderberg.org/railways.htm
There are lots of stories, some with truths, others myths. But US and the UK did destroy their rail systems by a concerted top down policy attempt, no other countries did this in anything like the same way, Switzerland and Japan have closed hardly any of their lines and improved them. There are as many miles of track now as there was in the 1950s world wide, and over 3000 KMs of new line are being built in Europe right now. Here, there are various smear campaigns which go on in the media, and by different groups, which have done for the last 40 years. Why was this all done? Certainly in Britain it could be argued to break the unions which, along with the miners and steel workers gave the government a bloody nose on a number of occasions. There are other political and strategic reasons as well. A conspiracy is a bit strong but there are attempts to steer the situation in certain ways, no question about that.
Some oil companies have campaigned against climate change initiatives, indeed so does the Bush government. Most, if not all of this is purely down to the economic interests of certain individuals. Just last week someone resigned over changing official information to de-sex climate information. I think its very naïve to suggest a website ‘tells the truth’. There are an awful lot of websites that pretend to tell the truth, it’s just those with the facts at their finger tips and bother to do the research know different.
Anyway, if you want to have a look at a conspiracy, have a look at this.
http://www.bilderberg.org/railways.htm
Last edited by Wildwell on Sun 19 Jun 2005, 07:46:00, edited 1 time in total.
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by JohnDenver » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 22:50:21
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'T')here are elements of truth to the story. There was no doubt in the 1950s other the UK and US governments acted to destroy the rail systems – on face value just by subsidising huge road building programs.
No doubt about that, Wildwell. Clearly there has been (and still is) a lot of manipulation going on, and I'd like to know more about it. Nevertheless, facts are important, and the GM/Firestone story (as told by Monte) is a myth. Also, as Schwarz says, this whole way of looking at the issue obscures the real source of the problem. Nobody needed to force the consumer to adopt the car. People love cars and roads.
It reminds me of people blaming Bush and Cheney for waging "blood for oil" wars. Bush and Cheney are completely blameless -- they are simply obeying the orders of the electorate: "We want our cars. Do whatever it takes to get the cheap gas." Nobody is ramming the car down the throat of ordinary people.
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by Wildwell » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 23:07:50
Well I must point out that I’m not really a conspiracy theorist myself. People do like their cars and there is no doubt about it that certain schemes were going to be redundant after the advent of the private car. It would be stupid to suggest the rail systems could compete in the same way post war. In Britain the system was very run down, completely wrecked during the war years, it needed so much money spent on it that it was never going to get back to its interwar glory days.
As for people shifting to the cars, it depends how you look at it, here we have more passengers at any time since 1946, on half the network. This is against a backdrop of competition with cheap buses and airlines and the private car. Even in the 1960s, when the trunk main line was upgraded between London, Birmingham and Manchester, passenger numbers shot up through the roof. At the same time the highway network was being heavily upgraded, with ‘no speed limit’, 6 lane roads – until the number of accidents forced the government to fix a mandatory speed limit of 70mph.
Much of Europe and Japan is the same, there are problems in some rural areas, but the backbones and light rail systems are generally very successful. The US intercity network was never going to compete with airlines. In urban areas, a case could have been made to retain light rail systems. European cities never axed their systems, but then there is less land available for urban development.
I don’t know the exact circumstances of the GM, Firestone involvement. But GM was and still is a very bullish company, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were pulling strings. At a guess, I would say the story does have an *element* of truth, conspiracy might be a bit laughable, but then again so is saying the story was born from people’s love of ‘the good old days’.
As for people shifting to the cars, it depends how you look at it, here we have more passengers at any time since 1946, on half the network. This is against a backdrop of competition with cheap buses and airlines and the private car. Even in the 1960s, when the trunk main line was upgraded between London, Birmingham and Manchester, passenger numbers shot up through the roof. At the same time the highway network was being heavily upgraded, with ‘no speed limit’, 6 lane roads – until the number of accidents forced the government to fix a mandatory speed limit of 70mph.
Much of Europe and Japan is the same, there are problems in some rural areas, but the backbones and light rail systems are generally very successful. The US intercity network was never going to compete with airlines. In urban areas, a case could have been made to retain light rail systems. European cities never axed their systems, but then there is less land available for urban development.
I don’t know the exact circumstances of the GM, Firestone involvement. But GM was and still is a very bullish company, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were pulling strings. At a guess, I would say the story does have an *element* of truth, conspiracy might be a bit laughable, but then again so is saying the story was born from people’s love of ‘the good old days’.
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by MicroHydro » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 23:22:15
In 1936, General Motors joined forces with Firestone Tire and Rubber, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum and Mack Truck to form a corporation called National City Lines. The purpose of NCL was to use its immense pool of wealth to buy up trolley tracks and systems in cities across the US, dismantle them, and replace them with diesel bus lines. The American Heritage "History of Railroads in America" notes that at this point in history "Los Angeles' quiet, pollution-free, electric train system was totally destroyed." These General Motors buses were conveniently fueled by Standard Oil and driven on Firestone Tires. Since it is illegal in America to monopolize a market, National City Lines was brought to court in 1949. They were found guilty of criminally conspiring to control the market sales of buses and related products to local transportation companies throughout the country. The Government fined them a mere $5000 for their trust violation, and broke the company apart.
The PBS documentary "Taken for a Ride" documents this history.
The PBS documentary "Taken for a Ride" documents this history.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
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by MonteQuest » Sat 18 Jun 2005, 23:51:06
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', ' ')
No doubt about that, Wildwell. Clearly there has been (and still is) a lot of manipulation going on, and I'd like to know more about it. Nevertheless, facts are important, and the GM/Firestone story (as told by Monte) is a myth. Also, as Schwarz says, this whole way of looking at the issue obscures the real source of the problem. Nobody needed to force the consumer to adopt the car. People love cars and roads.
No doubt about that, Wildwell. Clearly there has been (and still is) a lot of manipulation going on, and I'd like to know more about it. Nevertheless, facts are important, and the GM/Firestone story (as told by Monte) is a myth. Also, as Schwarz says, this whole way of looking at the issue obscures the real source of the problem. Nobody needed to force the consumer to adopt the car. People love cars and roads.
The use of the word "force" should have been obvious. With the demise of the rail/trolley lines people had little other "choice" than to embrace the car/bus. There was a lot more going on than covered so far. To say it is a myth is a stretch.
GM/Firestone were charged on two counts and aquitted on one. The end result is a better verdict. The rail/trolley systems were dismantled. OJ Simpson was aquitted. Did he kill his wife? Or is that a myth?
My point was that large corporations do not have a habit of doing what is best for society. History is replete with examples. Noam Chomsky doesn't think it is a myth either. See this exerpt from his book, Year 501.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chomsky', 'O')ne dramatic example is the "Los Angelizing" of the US economy, a huge state-corporate campaign to direct consumer preferences to "suburban sprawl and individualized transport -- as opposed to clustered suburbanization compatible with a mix of rail, bus, and motor car transport," Richard Du Boff observes in his economic history of the United States, a policy that involved "massive destruction of central city capital stock" and "relocating rather than augmenting the supply of housing, commercial structures, and public infrastructure." The role of the federal government was to provide funds for "complete motorization and the crippling of surface mass transit"; this was the major thrust of the Federal Highway Acts of 1944, 1956, and 1968, implementing a strategy designed by GM chairman Alfred Sloan. Huge sums were spent on interstate highways without interference, as Congress surrendered control to the Bureau of Public Roads; about 1 percent of the sum was devoted to rail transit. The Federal Highway Administration estimated total expenditures at $80 billion by 1981, with another $40 billion planned for the next decade. State and local governments managed the process on the scene.
The private sector operated in parallel: "Between 1936 and 1950, National City Lines, a holding company sponsored and funded by GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil of California, bought out more than 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities (including New York, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Tulsa, and Los Angeles) to be dismantled and replaced with GM buses... In 1949 GM and its partners were convicted in U.S.district court in Chicago of criminal conspiracy in this matter and fined $5,000."
http://www.bilderberg.org/nclchoms.htm#Burden
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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