[americandream]

I will wind up my contributions in this thread in suggesting that you people understand the connection between material dialecticism and evolution in general. Whilst a lot of what people like vtsnowedin are saying appears intuitive, one has to remember that humankind has broken apparently entrenched patterns when material conditions dictated. Primal needs for self preservation (food and shelter) always trumps other concerns agreed, but the rise of wants (greed) as a phenomenon is directly connected with material conditions and approaching conditions will dictate whether we adapt successfully or become another failed species. In this context, sharing would seem fairly obvious and the direction we are likely to be compelled to follow. But this is no guarantee as the timespans are not in our favour.

[Quinny]

The question was asked why it's in the majorities self interest to become communist. What's the average income/wealth? To how many people would this be an improvement?

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'T')he question was asked why it's in the majorities self interest to become communist. What's the average income/wealth? To how many people would this be an improvement?

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '[')I don't believe we or anybody else lives in a pure Democracy based on strict modern Capitalistic economic rules either, do you?

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '[')I don't believe we or anybody else lives in a pure Democracy based on strict modern Capitalistic economic rules either, do you?

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '[')Once the inevitable collapse of capitalism happens, under environmental and resource scarcity, I believe we'll see a return to many of the old forms of social rule.

[Strummer]

I always thought that the "natural" order that agricultural/industrial society gravitates towards must be some form of feudalism. The end of feudalism really seems to be a freak event, caused by a sudden shortage of labour after the Black Death in the 14th and 15 century, followed by an unexpected abundance of resources due to the colonial expansion starting in the 16th century. The fact that the abundance of resources was always a "step ahead" of population growth, meant that there was always a shortage of labour to exploit those new resources, resulting naturally in the transformation to a capitalist system. Now we are going backwards, into the age of resource scarcity and a huge surplus of free labour, and all signs point to a return of some form of feudal rule (masses of serfs governed by a tiny elite).

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '[')Once the inevitable collapse of capitalism happens, under environmental and resource scarcity, I believe we'll see a return to many of the old forms of social rule.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '[')Once the inevitable collapse of capitalism happens, under environmental and resource scarcity, I believe we'll see a return to many of the old forms of social rule.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')I don't see a collapse of capitalism as being remotely likely much less inevitable. Certain of the hybrids as you call them may well collapse under the weight of the debts they have taken on but what remains will be capitalist in function whether it be kingdom, dictatorship, tribe or corporate monopoly.

[Quinny]

I think resource shortage will inevitably lead to the collapse of capitalism because it is so wasteful of resources.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon1', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')I don't see a collapse of capitalism as being remotely likely much less inevitable. Certain of the hybrids as you call them may well collapse under the weight of the debts they have taken on but what remains will be capitalist in function whether it be kingdom, dictatorship, tribe or corporate monopoly.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon1', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')I don't see a collapse of capitalism as being remotely likely much less inevitable. Certain of the hybrids as you call them may well collapse under the weight of the debts they have taken on but what remains will be capitalist in function whether it be kingdom, dictatorship, tribe or corporate monopoly.

[ralfy]

A modern capitalist system requires increasing credit to support increasing production and consumption of resources, both of which take place because of competition. Credit increases further through financial speculation.

Efficiency can lead to lower consumption of resources but that is eventually offset by both increasing credit and production.

Competition may be removed through a monopoly, but increasing human population and resource demand per capita, not to mention damage to resources due to pollution and global warming, will still need to more demand for credit, resources, and energy.

Of all predicaments, it is global warming coupled with environmental damage that will take its toll on that system.

Given that, capitalism is obviously not sustainable, until at least population drops, the environment is healed, the effects of global warming diminish, and more resources are made available so that the same problems can take place again.

[vtsnowedin]

Economists have been obsessed with the need for growth for centuries. In all that time there has always been a growing population which was in fact the cause of the need for growth not some inherent flaw in the capitalistic economic system. When the population stops growing and indeed starts to decline where will there be a need for growth in the economy? Will not next years Christmas sales be just as good as last years sales if there are the same number of stockings to fill. Will not last years harvest be sufficient if there are the same or less mouths to feed?
Yes capitalism will face challenges ahead and it will win.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'E')conomists have been obsessed with the need for growth for centuries. In all that time there has always been a growing population which was in fact the cause of the need for growth not some inherent flaw in the capitalistic economic system. When the population stops growing and indeed starts to decline where will there be a need for growth in the economy? Will not next years Christmas sales be just as good as last years sales if there are the same number of stockings to fill. Will not last years harvest be sufficient if there are the same or less mouths to feed?
Yes capitalism will face challenges ahead and it will win.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'E')conomists have been obsessed with the need for growth for centuries. In all that time there has always been a growing population which was in fact the cause of the need for growth not some inherent flaw in the capitalistic economic system. When the population stops growing and indeed starts to decline where will there be a need for growth in the economy? Will not next years Christmas sales be just as good as last years sales if there are the same number of stockings to fill. Will not last years harvest be sufficient if there are the same or less mouths to feed?
Yes capitalism will face challenges ahead and it will win.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'C')are to give us an example?

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'C')are to give us an example?

[Pops]

The goal of capitalism is not "continuous growth", it is continuous accumulation via private property, I never have figured out the whole bit about "continuous growth" outside of banking. Acquisition would still be the goal in a zero sum world and maybe even more important in a world where "wealth" and growth is negative.

You could cut off all the ff energy and shutter all the banks tomorrow and the economy would go into freefall but the goal (after survival) would still be acquiring more, not "continuous growth". It might only mean more rutabagas in the root cellar, but the natural tendency is then more rutabaga growing room, then more rutabaga tenders, etc.

Am I right that the folks who typically agitate for true communism are the folks from whom nothing would be taken in the great reshuffling? Whatever economic model is not to blame for the ills of the world, human's penchant for acquisition and finding an "easier way" perhaps is.

Perhaps there were people once upon a time who didn't compete with each other for resources. I think it likely their populations were kept in check by other means that precluded the need for direct competition. What we idolize as idyllic from our antibiotic disinfected couches (cracks stuffed with stale cheese doodles) was maybe not so. In the end, the proof of the success of that strategy in a "modern" population pressured world is in how many of those folks are left.

So is GW going to end capitalism? I think it's hardly likely, I've mentioned all the billions made just as a result of Katrina and Sandy. There is lots of money to be made repairing broken windows.