[yellowcanoe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
Every new structure is accompanied by violence. In fact, the planet has not yet recovered from the advent of capitalism via the British Empire. Vast parts of the globe are still resourcing gulags where whole populations are held captive by corrupt and violent rulers (in essence jailers) on behalf of their imperial masters in Europe. This relationship is changing as corporate bosses replace political overlords but the violence of capital which has not been documented to the same degree that the capitalists have "documented" that of workers in their own republics runs for centuries and is truly epic. You living in the heartland of that empire (notwithstanding its nominal republican status) are kept suitably misinformed and well fed, like a drone.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yellowcanoe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
Every new structure is accompanied by violence. In fact, the planet has not yet recovered from the advent of capitalism via the British Empire. Vast parts of the globe are still resourcing gulags where whole populations are held captive by corrupt and violent rulers (in essence jailers) on behalf of their imperial masters in Europe. This relationship is changing as corporate bosses replace political overlords but the violence of capital which has not been documented to the same degree that the capitalists have "documented" that of workers in their own republics runs for centuries and is truly epic. You living in the heartland of that empire (notwithstanding its nominal republican status) are kept suitably misinformed and well fed, like a drone.

[Quinny]

I think what many westerners don't actually realise is that for most people earning the average would be a massive improvement. Capital has allowed the system to milk these people for many years.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'I') think what many westerners don't actually realise is that for most people earning the average would be a massive improvement. Capital has allowed the system to milk these people for many years.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
I have never agreed with the label "state capitalist" which is an absurdity. One is a bourgeoisie socialist economy with roots in private capital and elements of the socialised or an incomplete form of the revolutionary socialist operating within a framework of permanent revolution but with no ties to private capital. Capital is quite specific in its form. There has to be a market for capital to acquire the features of capital. Or else it is mere wealth in fixed form.

The term was bandied about by mischief makers during the Soviet era as another ploy in undermining the then revolution that was taking place worldwide and it clearly succeeded.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')
I have never agreed with the label "state capitalist" which is an absurdity. One is a bourgeoisie socialist economy with roots in private capital and elements of the socialised or an incomplete form of the revolutionary socialist operating within a framework of permanent revolution but with no ties to private capital. Capital is quite specific in its form. There has to be a market for capital to acquire the features of capital. Or else it is mere wealth in fixed form.

The term was bandied about by mischief makers during the Soviet era as another ploy in undermining the then revolution that was taking place worldwide and it clearly succeeded.

[KaiserJeep]

The idea that we must adopt Communism in any form whatsoever or perish is also ludicrous.

Quite simply, nobody is ever going to act in opposition to self-interest. If the alternatives are giving up Capitalism or perishing, humans will perish in great numbers. But we are never going to voluntarily change economic systems.

Then when the survivors regroup decades later, they will begin to trade, and currency will be used, and taxes collected and people will once again begin segregating into haves/have-nots.

This cycle of collapse/recovery repeats until the planet is uninhabitable. Then humans go extinct, if this small planet is the only place we are living.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ') If the alternatives are giving up Capitalism or perishing, humans will perish in great numbers. But we are never going to voluntarily change economic systems.

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ') If the alternatives are giving up Capitalism or perishing, humans will perish in great numbers. But we are never going to voluntarily change economic systems.

[americandream]

Remember, at the end of the Dark Ages, the Luddites (and most all of the peasant population of Europe) said exactly what you have just said but could not stop the march of capitalism (as I am sure you would find with Muslims and the Islamic system in the contemporary world). Read up on what material dialecticism means.

[KaiserJeep]

I know what it means. But Capitalism was invented about 3000BC. It does in fact take capital investments for shipbuilding, organized farming, or raising cattle. Currency existed then. Taxes existed then. Politics existed then. Capitalism was existent 5000 years before Marx and Engels published some interesting texts of no especial importance.

And the nature of Capitalism has not changed in 5000 years. Only technology has advanced. It is this technological advance that is widely misinterpreted as the evolution of economic systems. But in fact the technological changes only produce extremes in a system already in place.

The rank speculations of Marx and Engels have had their day. The experiment failed, and millions of people were killed in Communist purges. We need not repeat the genocide just to confirm for the 43rd time that Communism is not viable.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') know what it means.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 't')he iron oppression of the People's Army as expressed in the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

[americandream]

Irrespective of who did what to whom in previous communist experiments, living collectively and sharing on that basis is the only real option for the future post peak oil, IMHO. This endless bickering as to who was the most evil is pretty pointless bearing in mid that we are trying to find options that will work in the event that BAU is done, kaput.

[KaiserJeep]

If that is the case, pick an economic system that does not require a person to act against their own welfare. Pick one that does not attempt to substitute some nebulous and unclear "state" or "common good" for the cultural values all of us have.

Believe me, if you are not living in a Communist regime, you do not know what you are talking about. I mentioned my next door neighbor before. He came here in 1991 from Russia, the most successful Communist state that ever existed. He is eternally thankful to be here, and still curses Communism. He is 71 years old and was the 3rd generation of his family that lived in Russia after the October Revolution.

As a dose of reality, go and find a person who lived in a Communist state. Take the time to get to know them. Note that NONE of them feel any nostalgia for the good old days. Think about it. Consider that you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Communism can't be made to work in a time of plenty. It will never even get an audition in a time of resource shortages.

Once you have it all figured out, seek out that person who filled your head with twaddle about Communism, and share your new insights with them.

[Lore]

It's been mentioned here already that capitlism is an economic system, not a social system. Even though Wall Street would like us to believe otherwise in that the free market left unfettered can somehow rule for the better by proxy the social welfare of its citizenry. Which is quite laughable on the face of it.

As an economic system based on profit it must fail when the means for making profit disappear with the circumstances of future environmental and resource pressure. Back to feudalism I'm afraid. Which by the way is both a political and economic system.

[yellowcanoe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')
Believe me, if you are not living in a Communist regime, you do not know what you are talking about. I mentioned my next door neighbor before. He came here in 1991 from Russia, the most successful Communist state that ever existed. He is eternally thankful to be here, and still curses Communism. He is 71 years old and was the 3rd generation of his family that lived in Russia after the October Revolution.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'A')s a dose of reality, go and find a person who lived in a Communist state. Take the time to get to know them. Note that NONE of them feel any nostalgia for the good old days. Think about it. Consider that you simply do not know what you are talking about.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '
')As a dose of reality, go and find a person who lived in a Communist state. Take the time to get to know them. Note that NONE of them feel any nostalgia for the good old days. Think about it. Consider that you simply do not know what you are talking about.

[Quinny]

You've just explained why communism will prevail! It is in the interest of the majority!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'T')he idea that we must adopt Communism in any form whatsoever or perish is also ludicrous.

Quite simply, nobody is ever going to act in opposition to self-interest. If the alternatives are giving up Capitalism or perishing, humans will perish in great numbers. But we are never going to voluntarily change economic systems.

Then when the survivors regroup decades later, they will begin to trade, and currency will be used, and taxes collected and people will once again begin segregating into haves/have-nots.

This cycle of collapse/recovery repeats until the planet is uninhabitable. Then humans go extinct, if this small planet is the only place we are living.