[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he indigenous peoples of North and South America were much better at protecting the environment and handing a sustainable world to their descendants than the Europeans ever have been. Partly why the Europeans had to branch out to enlarge their planet scorching economic/political schemes, because Europe wasn't large enough by the 15th century for all of it to fit in.

[Strummer]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clif', 'T')he indigenous peoples of North and South America were much better at protecting the environment and handing a sustainable world to their descendants than the Europeans ever have been.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Strummer', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clif', 'T')he indigenous peoples of North and South America were much better at protecting the environment and handing a sustainable world to their descendants than the Europeans ever have been.

[dohboi]

S said: "their ecosystems and nutrient cycles were stretched to the limits."

And because they lived mostly in relatively small-scales societies. Today's global industrial society can go to the depths of the earth, to the bottom of the ocean, and to any part of the globe to extract the resources it needs to keep its unsustainable obsessions going.

If you are limited to a local or even regional scope of resources, the consequences of your over-exploitation of those resources comes back to bite you fairly quickly. While that may collapse the immediate environment (the US SW is apparently in a much more impoverished state ecologically than before its over-exploitation by the Anasazi.

When that unsustainable system collapsed, much brutality, including cannibalism, ensued.

Most small- to mid-scale cultures that have survived any length of time either never overstepped the boundaries of what their immediate environment could sustain, or (more often) have learned, often through very brutal lessons, the importance of now living within the limits that their predecessors exceeded.

(Thanks to all for not ftt.)

[Lore]

Our fragile technology gives us a false sense of security. As the saying goes; "the bigger they are the harder they fall". While as a well oiled collective we are capable of plumbing the great depths of our resources, it only takes the removal of a few well placed corner stones to bring the whole house of cards down. At which point, techno naked, we'll be worse off then our ancestors were with even less tools to work with and fewer of the necessaries of life to be had. This is why humanity needs to be prepared for episodes of soul crunching, gut flipping, cliff diving panic in the future.

[dohboi]

Nice points, L. Speaking of Apocolypse, here's an oldie (over a year old ) but goodie (in a doomy way):

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... urn&page=1

Apocalypse Soon:
Has Civilization Passed the Environmental Point of No Return?

There's good news here--that is for people who like bad news.

[Lore]

That article probably best coincides with my timeline.

Unlike our forefathers, when they came up against it, they could always run further down the road, or move to a virgin continent to exploit what's there. Now, there's no where to run and not even anywhere to hide from what's coming. Depleation of our great oceans is only one of the many converging problems we face.

Yes, just another 25 years or so before the pain really becomes critical.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'T')hat article probably best coincides with my timeline.

Unlike our forefathers, when they came up against it, they could always run further down the road, or move to a virgin continent to exploit what's there. Now, there's no where to run and not even anywhere to hide from what's coming. Depleation of our great oceans is only one of the many converging problems we face.

Yes, just another 25 years or so before the pain really becomes critical.

[Synapsid]

For all:

Here's a fairly new book that I recommend:

Thirst--Water and Power in the Ancient World. The author is Steven Mithen, a British archaeologist who is a very fine writer. He writes in part from his own research.

An earlier book of Mithen's, After the Ice, A Global Human History 20 000 - 5000BC, gives a broader context for the later volume.

There is a fine book, edited by David Lentz, titled Imperfect Balance: Landscape Transformations in the Precolumbian Americas. The papers included draw mostly on palaeoenvironmental reconstruction and archaeology, and give an idea of just how widely different cultures in the Americas varied in how well they worked with their environments. Some flourished, but not all.

[WildRose]

Thanks for posting that presentation, dohboi.

Things are actually worse than I thought they were for the ecosystems in our oceans.

Jeremy Jackson speaks about "putting the genie back in the bottle" (fossil fuels) as probably the most important step we can take to not only try and save the oceans but also to mitigate all of the climate change/environmental challenges we're facing. So sad - our future hinges on reducing fossil fuel use and here we are, building Keystone and planning for Gateway and the future quadrupling of tar sands production, along with expansion of coal mines in China, etc., etc.

[onlooker]

I think those who have analyzed the whole picture of the environmental apocalypse which is happening and is rapidly worsening reach the same conclusion, namely what some term bottleneck or culling of the herd. Given the population size , the increasing scarcity
of critical resources, namely water, energy and thus food it is quite evident that one way or the other large amounts of persons probably will perish in this century or coming decades in various ways. As discussed on the Environment forum of all the threats we face perhaps none is as frightening and daunting as AGW. Yet, other threats stand ready to rear their ugly heads. I refer everyone to an author-scientist who summarizes our predicament also very well whose name is Paul Ehrlich. In conclusion, this reality however distressing or disturbing cannot be ignored or over-exaggerated.

[onlooker]

Oh and I left out the precarious condition of our ecosystems and not just the ocean. !

[Graeme]

Major reductions in seafloor marine life from climate change by 2100

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') new study quantifies for the first time future losses in deep-sea marine life, using advanced climate models. Results show that even the most remote deep-sea ecosystems are not safe from the impacts of climate change.

An international team of scientists predict seafloor dwelling marine life will decline by up to 38 per cent in the North Atlantic and over five per cent globally over the next century. These changes will be driven by a reduction in the plants and animals that live at the surface of the oceans that feed deep-sea communities. As a result, ecosystem services such as fishing will be threatened.

In the study, led by the National Oceanography Centre, the team used the latest suite of climate models to predict changes in food supply throughout the world oceans. They then applied a relationship between food supply and biomass calculated from a huge global database of marine life.

The results of the study are published this week in the scientific journal Global Change Biology.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]Major reductions in seafloor marine life from climate change by 2100

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')
By 2100 much of the coastline of Florida will be submerged and maybe all that man-made structure underwater will provide a habitat for some additional marine life. Not a fix, but maybe a silver lining.

[vision-master]

Ok Lore, I'm assuming, being so concerned, A - you are living off the grid, B - you don't own any cars and C - your life's work is to address and inform as many people as possible about the coming doom?

The reality most likely is, you live just like any other upper middle class person.

[dohboi]

"I would tell him to get out now! "

Good idea. There is no way to build an effective sea wall around the area. Not only is it just too massive, the bedrock underneath it is completely porous--the water will just seep under and around it.

Miami Beach is just one good storm surge away from being ocean. Miami itself is about the same away from becoming an island.

(Don't you hate it when @-holes assume that everyone else is as much of an @-hole as they are?)

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '&')quot;I would tell him to get out now! "

Good idea. There is no way to build an effective sea wall around the area. Not only is it just too massive, the bedrock underneath it is completely porous--the water will just seep under and around it.

[dohboi]

Thanks for that graph, dino. Fits pretty well with what I've seen for many other large fish, for example, graphs # 7-10 here:

http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2013/12 ... -2013.html

[Newfie]

Fish, whales, sea birds, seals, walrus....then you get to land...

Read Mowat "Sea of Slaughter." Disgusting.