[Subjectivist]

For the drilling experts, if you wanted to drill a well specifically to produce brine water how much would it cost compared to other types of wells? Presumably because of corrosion the well casing would have a limited lifetime.

The reason I ask is Ohio has adopted a new winter deicing plan for major roads. Instead of spreading rocksalt only after snow has begun to accumulate they have been spraying brine on the roads when snow is predicted. Some places have even been using low contaminated frack waste water as road spray.

Rather than using frack waste water or making brine from rocksalt and fresh water I would prefer them that they just pump up brine water already mixed in the ground and use it for road spray. However if the cost to do it that way is excessive I would feel differently lol.

[Paulo1]

Our local Highways Contractor has been using brine for a few years. I have never had so many problems with my brakes. When I was commuting I had to fix brakes on a regular schedule. The rotors would totally rust up even though I sprayed everything hot with fresh water, often. I think it is cheaper and that is why they do it, plus they can pick their time and don't have to pay ot; spreading salt at 3:00 am for example.

If I had my choice I would try and get the utility to stop spreading brine, period. Salt is bad enough.

Paulo

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Paulo1', 'O')ur local Highways Contractor has been using brine for a few years. I have never had so many problems with my brakes. When I was commuting I had to fix brakes on a regular schedule. The rotors would totally rust up even though I sprayed everything hot with fresh water, often. I think it is cheaper and that is why they do it, plus they can pick their time and don't have to pay ot; spreading salt at 3:00 am for example.

If I had my choice I would try and get the utility to stop spreading brine, period. Salt is bad enough.

Paulo

[ROCKMAN]

First: brine vs. salt. Brine is water with salt dissolved in it. Spread salt on ice and ice melts to produce water with salt = brine. Thus brine and salt will produce the same corrosion problems because they are the same thing.

Salt water producing well: because of the need for a larger diameter well bore to produce high volumes you run bigger casing. Bigger csg = higher cost. Huge salt water volumes require expensive chrome steel including the csg and all other components. Also many oil/NG will reservoirs will flow naturally at least initially. Rare to find a salt water reservoir that would. So a significant lift system would be required. And that lift would use a significant amount of energy to move a large volume of brine. So now you can get the brine to the surface...now what do you do with it? Easy: build huge storage facilities to hold the brine until needed. Salt can be stored in a relatively cheap warehouse. If the well is to supply a large area you can't fill trucks up individually: would take too much time to be practical. Now you have to move the brine to the roads you need to de-ice. Tanks trucks are more expensive than dump trucks used to spread salt. And the brine filled tankers would deliver much less salt per mile than a dump truck would so they would need a lot more tankers. And the water component of the brine would weigh significantly more than the salt component. Thus more energy would be used through the process to move the water component which actually does nothing to eliminate the ice.

The one significant factor that might make well brine more practical is if the salt has to be shipped in from a long distance. So I would be surprised if well brine would be practical in most areas. Also, I understand that in PA the state takes oil field brine from the oil patch for free and uses it to de-ice. BTW spray oil field brine on Texas roads and you ass is grass and the Rail Road Commission would be the lawnmower. Violates our environmental regs. Another reason why I'm amazed by Yankee reaction to oil field waste when they intentionally dump millions of pounds of toxic salt into the environment here it can run off into streams and filter down to fresh ware aquifers.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'F')irst: brine vs. salt. Brine is water with salt dissolved in it. Spread salt on ice and ice melts to produce water with salt = brine. Thus brine and salt will produce the same corrosion problems because they are the same thing.

Salt water producing well: because of the need for a larger diameter well bore to produce high volumes you run bigger casing. Bigger csg = higher cost. Huge salt water volumes require expensive chrome steel including the csg and all other components. Also many oil/NG will reservoirs will flow naturally at least initially. Rare to find a salt water reservoir that would. So a significant lift system would be required. And that lift would use a significant amount of energy to move a large volume of brine. So now you can get the brine to the surface...now what do you do with it? Easy: build huge storage facilities to hold the brine until needed. Salt can be stored in a relatively cheap warehouse. If the well is to supply a large area you can't fill trucks up individually: would take too much time to be practical. Now you have to move the brine to the roads you need to de-ice. Tanks trucks are more expensive than dump trucks used to spread salt. And the brine filled tankers would deliver much less salt per mile than a dump truck would so they would need a lot more tankers. And the water component of the brine would weigh significantly more than the salt component. Thus more energy would be used through the process to move the water component which actually does nothing to eliminate the ice.

The one significant factor that might make well brine more practical is if the salt has to be shipped in from a long distance. So I would be surprised if well brine would be practical in most areas. Also, I understand that in PA the state takes oil field brine from the oil patch for free and uses it to de-ice. BTW spray oil field brine on Texas roads and you ass is grass and the Rail Road Commission would be the lawnmower. Violates our environmental regs. Another reason why I'm amazed by Yankee reaction to oil field waste when they intentionally dump millions of pounds of toxic salt into the environment here it can run off into streams and filter down to fresh ware aquifers.

[ROCKMAN]

I thought the question dealt with the economics of producing brine from wells. As far as using salty frac fluids that's a moot question: I'm aware of no state that allows dumping frac fluids on the ground.

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Salt Institute ("EVERYTHING'S BETTER WITH A LITTLE SALT", "How Adding Iodine to Salt Boosted Americans’ IQ") has stated that applying brine before snow or ice has bonded to the pavement can be ten times more effective than spreading granular salt on top of snow and ice after the precipitation has bonded to the pavement. It takes one ton of salt to make 1,000 gallons of brine, resulting in less granular salt usage. Since pre-treating with brine makes subsequent applications of salt work more efficiently, twice as much can be accomplished with the same amount of salt.

[vtsnowedin]

As someone that has actually done skid testing to test the effectiveness of salt substitutes and pretreatment with brine I have a very clear opinion of this.
It is stupid!!! And a waste of money.
Consider your truck loaded with 4000 gallons of brine (a full 20 ton load) from the Salt institute post above you see that that load only has four tons of salt in it. On a real storm you need 500 lbs of salt per two lane mile so that load will treat sixteen miles effectively. The same truck with a spreader carrying twenty tons of dry or pre wetted salt can treat eighty miles of road letting mother nature deliver the water then switch to sand if desired. You can't put sand through a tank and pump.
What DOT is so caught up on their road repairs that they can afford two fleets of trucks, one to pre treat with brine and another to plow and salt mid storm?

[ROCKMAN]

vt - Thanks. And once again the wide range of experiences present on this site pays off.

[Subjectivist]

We use two fleets of trucks here now, which adds a lot to the cost. I have yet to see a brine truck in action spraying so I could be wrong, in my old job I saw advertisements for removable spray tanks designed to strap into the box on a dump truck. If the state and county bought those kind of dual use trucks it isn't as bad. However as vt said, it seems like an awful lot of money for very little effective benefit. That is why I am curious about brine water extraction wells, they would do two things IMO. First they would save all the effort that goes into the mixing of the salt water brine solution out of rock salt, I am sure it is more complicated than just running water through a salt pile and capturing the resulting brine. Secondly it would save a lot of fresh water that is currently used to make the brine because you would be consuming water nobody wants to drink or irrigate with.

Just think of all the extra labor and manpower needed to set up the brine trucks and spray the 8 mile out an back loop they can do instead of the 40 mile loop out and back a salt truck can do. Even if the brine were twice as efficent as rock salt in melting snow so you could halve the application rate you would get less than half as many miles done with one truck load.

It all makes one wonder how the brine spray advocates were able to convince so many counties to switch over...or did the Federal Highway Administration make it the standard for federally funded roads? If that happened then they had to buy the equipment just to get their federal funding.

[ROCKMAN]

And again I'll point out that a well drilled and designed to produce a large volume of brine would be very expensive. And if a small number of wells are drilled then they'll have to build numerous large storage facilities to hold the reserves until needed. And then perhaps haul the brine hundreds of miles to where it is needed or at least build a lot of storage tanks across the entire region. But the brine would still have to be hauled to those facilities from the wells.

The cost and efficiency of the spraying is only half the story...at best

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')nd again I'll point out that a well drilled and designed to produce a large volume of brine would be very expensive. And if a small number of wells are drilled then they'll have to build numerous large storage facilities to hold the reserves until needed. And then perhaps haul the brine hundreds of miles to where it is needed or at least build a lot of storage tanks across the entire region. But the brine would still have to be hauled to those facilities from the wells.

The cost and efficiency of the spraying is only half the story...at best

[ROCKMAN]

sub - I knew PA used oil field brines. Interesting to see that it's not uncommon. Getting free salt water would certainly help the economics. Funny how in Texas you hear few complaining about frac'ng but up north a very different story. And yet up north they'll dump oil field brines on the roads and I've had to actually spend $millions over the last 38 years disposing of those same fluids down deep wells. And forget brine...think rainwater. In La. when I'm drilling in a wet lands area I have to put a ring dike around my drill site. Of course when it rains the dike keeps the water on the drill site. Get enough rain and it flood the site. So all I need do is pump it over the dike. Right...just rain water. WRONG...it's illegal for me to pump rain water off my location. I have to pay for trucks to haul it to certified disposal locations.

Rain...think what La. would do to me if they caught me dumping brine on a road. LOL

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') don't see how brine water can melt snow? All the salt ions available to dissolve in the still-frozen water are already taken up by the water you apply?

[Surf]

IIs there a brine aquifer with a high enough concentration to available? If there is is it big enough to do the job for many years. Yes you can drill for it . But if a brine aquifer is not readily known, You would have to do spend money for a survey. if one is found you would have to spend money to drill the well. In fact you may have to drill several wells before you find one with enough flow to be useable. So the upfront cost for the survey and wells would be very high compared to just buying a waste product or by buying rock salt and then mixing it with water.

[Synapsid]

Brine question:

I seem to recall that sulfur has been removed from where it caps salt domes by pumping down hot water to dissolve it and then pumping the solution back up. The question that comes to mind is: could you pump hot water into a salt dome and pump out the brine? It would be a lot cheaper than exploring for brines, as we know where there are a lot of salt domes.

There's still the problem of corrosivity, though, so the idea might be impractical. But then, I think using salt on roads is a bad idea to begin with, so why am I writing th...?

Oops.

I blame the tawny port. I'm normally much clearer-thinking, really I am.

[Synapsid]

pstarr,

LOTS of them along the Gulf Coast, yes, but you find them in Utah, for instance, and lots of Palaeozoic salt in the Midwest too (salt mines!) that could be flooded, perhaps. Still, it's probably not the best idea I ever came up with.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')ren't salt domes down Louisiana way where they don't need road salt?