[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'N')ice delete there Tanadra.

Why the knowledge filters?

What's YOUR agenda anyways, eh?

I post a response about current day ethics and you haven't the ethics to leave it well enough alone?

[SeaGypsy]

Our ethics virtually identical Tanada I wonder if that's why you put this up come to think of it, to help us know each other a little better?

That pyramid pic of Visions was somewhat interesting in the context of priorities in ethics- though I agree it seems a little late for the world ending last year.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'O')ur ethics virtually identical Tanada I wonder if that's why you put this up come to think of it, to help us know each other a little better?

That pyramid pic of Visions was somewhat interesting in the context of priorities in ethics- though I agree it seems a little late for the world ending last year.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'O')ur ethics virtually identical Tanada I wonder if that's why you put this up come to think of it, to help us know each other a little better?

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'O')ur ethics virtually identical Tanada I wonder if that's why you put this up come to think of it, to help us know each other a little better?

[Newfie]

Tanda,

I've given this thread some thought and think I have something additional to share. I objected strongly to being asked what my choices would be for reasons stated above.

What, to me, would be a better question would be to ask us to each come up with a FORMULA we could enact into law by which we could make the decision.

Too tired right now to do that exercise myself. Maybe tomorrow.

But the first line would likely be to subtract age from 85, to come up with a base score, then........

[Simon_R]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat, to me, would be a better question would be to ask us to each come up with a FORMULA we could enact into law by which we could make the decision.

[SeaGypsy]

Law, like society and family, is despite all illusions otherwise, an opt in- opt out situation- else there would be no need for prisons.

[Simon_R]

Granted.

Probably more correct would be.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an we develop a heurism that could be used to manage healthcare resources, where society is suffering a decline in wealth

[SeaGypsy]

That's easy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)

[Pops]

I guess I don't get the relevance of what kind of god each of us fancy ourselves. Not being a Christian I guess I don't get the bit about "judge not..."

The material question in rationing care should be what procedure/method provides the greatest good, not which subjective criteria entitles which patient to a procedure and least of all which procedure is most profitable..

Dialysis saves a life each time it is used, without it the patient in renal failure dies, that is 100% efficiency and in my book anything that is 100% efficient should be the last thing rationed. Not so some other procedures:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1'). Unexplained variation in the intensity of medical and surgical services, including but certainly not limited to: end of life care, overuse of coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) and overuse of percutaneous coronary procedures (PCI), with potential avoidable costs of up to $600 billion;
2. Misuse of drugs and treatments, resulting in avoidable adverse effects of medical treatment that could save $52.2 billion;
3. Overuse of non-urgent emergency department (ED) care that could save (conservatively) $21.4 billion;
4. Underuse of generic antihypertensives, with potential savings of $3 billion;
5. Underuse of controller medicines in pediatric asthma, particularly inhaled corticosteroids, with projected savings of $2.5 billion; and
6. Overuse of antibiotics for respiratory infections, with potential savings of $1.1 billion.

[dbruning]

1. 35 year old Housewife, mother of 2.
2. 20 year old College student
3. 35 year old Teacher
4. 9 year old disabled Child, if the disability was life threatening/extremely severe then I'm afraid she would be bumped, but otherwise I'm a softy on protecting the children.
5. 47 year old Police Officer.
6. 23 year old Prostitute

If the child was bumped, would put the Doctor in.

From what I am seeing, it appears I care a great deal more about the young getting a chance to live.

The Ethnicity didn't mean jack to me, and I ignored it pretty much. Skin color isn't important, actions are. Without more information in the test, that particular metric is absolutely useless, same as the marriage status.

In a real world situation, I would demand a LOT more information on each candidate than what was provided here.

[Peak_Yeast]

Occupation_____Age______Sex/Ethnicity_____ Children_____Status________Score
College Student________20________M, W____________None________Single_____________1
Housewife ______35_______F, W_____________M:12, F:7____Married___________2
Prostitute______23________F, W_____________F:3__________Single____________3
Teacher________35________M, B____________None_________Married___________4
Doctor__________65_______M, L______________None_______Married___________5
Police Officer_________47________M, B____________None_________Divorced__________6
Lawyer_________60_______M, B_____________M:25________Married___________7
Minister (Lutheran)______55________F, W___________F:30, M:27_____Married___________8
Autistic/Disabled Person__________9________F, W_____________None________Single____________9
Ex-Convict Manslaughter___40________M, B____________M:13, M:10____Married___________10

I supposed the autism was severe - i.e. not able to function without professional help.
I supposed the Manslaughter was a murderer - not accidental, but i suppose it was my bad english that led to that understanding. Besides the children has a mother - and if he was a bad apple then no severe problem.
The doctor was important to keep the health of the rest of the population and teach others.

[sparky]

.
You make them pay for it , those who offer the most get it ,
after all the frame of reference is a country where buying out a congressman is a valid tax deduction

[Fishman]

My word what a bunch of wussies. This is a standard death panel question. One which the IPAB will have to address. Sorry pops this is a huge cost of resources, you assume far more resources than many places have. This very question proves health care is NOT a right. It can never be a right, its a use of resources, that may be utilized in different manners. Opinion only
Doc dies, age 65
Autistic child(sorry) dies - huge amount of resources needed in the future
Prost dies, risk of death from hep c, hiv very high regardless
Last one is tough - but - Shakespeare rules - first we get rid of all the lawyers

All health care systems make decisions like this on a routine basis

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'M')y word what a bunch of wussies. This is a standard death panel question. One which the IPAB will have to address. Sorry pops this is a huge cost of resources, you assume far more resources than many places have. This very question proves health care is NOT a right. It can never be a right, its a use of resources, that may be utilized in different manners. Opinion only
Doc dies, age 65
Autistic child(sorry) dies - huge amount of resources needed in the future
Prost dies, risk of death from hep c, hiv very high regardless
Last one is tough - but - Shakespeare rules - first we get rid of all the lawyers

All health care systems make decisions like this on a routine basis

[Shaved Monkey]

The autism would need to be defined Einstein was thought to have aspergers a form of Autism,then again do we value focused intelligence with no empathy.
The ex con who committed man slaughter would need to be defined,one off act of passion assisted suicide or one off bad decision behind the wheel.
I would save the doc as the doc is a necessary part of society regardless of age
The lawyer isnt.
Teacher depends on what they taught,if it was exponential growth economics it would be no dialysis for you.
Prostitute could just be a out of luck junkie with father issues or a psych student working their way through university.
I would have to interview the minister, preachy self righteous religious nut job isn't an asset,compassionate, self less giver may be.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')


Occupation_____Age______Sex/Ethnicity_____ Children_____Status________Score

Housewife ______35_______F, W_____________M:12, F:7____Married___________

Doctor__________65_______M, L______________None_______Married___________

Lawyer_________60_______M, B_____________M:25________Married___________

Autistic/
Disabled
Person__________9________F, W_____________None________Single____________

College
Student________20________M, W____________None________Single_____________

Ex-Convict
Manslaughter___40________M, B____________M:13, M:10____Married___________

Prostitute______23________F, W_____________F:3__________Single____________

Teacher________35________M, B____________None_________Married___________

Minister
(Lutheran)______55________F, W___________F:30, M:27_____Married___________

Police
Officer_________47________M, B____________None_________Divorced__________


Key:
M=Male F=Female B=Black L=Latino W=White
The number next to the children’s sex is their age. For example,
M:17 means the child is a 17 year old male.

[lamorgaine]

I find it very interesting that we are asked to solve a medical problem and given very little medical information upon which to base the solution.

This is not initially an ethical problem, it is medical. Kidney failure can have many different causes, some are reversible and some are not.

Some of the information I would require before answering the question would be found in a complete health history of the people under consideration. Most importantly - why do they need the dialysis? Is the kidney failure acute or chronic? Does each person require the same frequency of dialysis? What are the co-morbidities? How compliant have the patients in question been with previous medical care?(compliant patients, in general, will usually only require their scheduled treatments, whereas those who are not compliant will require more than their scheduled treatments to rescue them from the consequences of their actions)

Without knowing the answers to these and other medical questions I don't believe it is possible to appropriately decide who is treated, regardless of how closely we examine their social/economic situation.