Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Technological Limits

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Technological Limits

Postby cube » Tue 14 Jun 2005, 18:36:54

I've noticed that most of the time when a prediction is made about the future, people envision a grand world where everything advances. History has proven otherwise. For every technology that advances even beyond the imagination of a sci fi writer there's at least one other that seems to be stuck in neutral.

Take for example computers. WOW. I mean seriously. Nobody saw that coming.

but for every succes there is a failure

Take for example freeways. Sure we may have more advanced materials and CAD (computer aided design/drafting) but our freeways are in worse shape now then before. And people spend more time in traffic today then 20 years ago.

So while we may have advanced technologically overall...in some areas we have actually regressed.

Make your prediction of what technology will flop.

Here's my prediction...yes freeways. I'm sorry but I don't see a bright future for freeways. I don't care if we master the art of super strong materials like carbon nano tubes, the condition of our freeways will only get worse.

if you're feeling negative about a technology put it here. :-D
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00

Postby Dezakin » Tue 14 Jun 2005, 20:55:11

The observation is that projections are nearly allways overoptimistic in the short term and hopelessly pessimistic in the long term, in terms of technological development. This is because technology generally advances at an exponential rate while people tend to think linearly.

In fifty years, I find it unlikely that humanity will have large scale commercial space flight, personal flying cars, robot armies, or any of the staple of space opera science fiction. Perhaps human level AI (which does bizare things to economic growth) but nothing terribly alien from what we see on the street today. More advertisments maybe. And keeping on topic for this site, probably fewer SUV's.

In one hundred and fifty years... I wouldn't be suprised if machines with the minds of gods and powers to match ruled over most of the solar system.

The fundamental reason human technological growth has been an exponential advance is because technology bootstraps itself and because it is a function of an educated population, which has been growing at a faster rate than raw population growth. When the whole world reaches the living standards (and productivity output) of the developed world perhaps we'll see a plateau, but by then perhaps machines will be able to reproduce human ingenuety.
User avatar
Dezakin
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Wed 09 Feb 2005, 04:00:00

Re: Technological Limits

Postby aldente » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 01:36:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')Here's my prediction...yes freeways. I'm sorry but I don't see a bright future for freeways. I don't care if we master the art of super strong materials like carbon nano tubes, the condition of our freeways will only get worse.


There's also a certain beauty in this all so short lived freeway system, check it out:



Image
Last edited by aldente on Wed 15 Jun 2005, 10:12:36, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
aldente
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 1554
Joined: Fri 20 Aug 2004, 03:00:00

Postby cube » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 03:22:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '.').........

In one hundred and fifty years... I wouldn't be suprised if machines with the minds of gods and powers to match ruled over most of the solar system.

...............
That may happen, but there will still be terrible traffic on the freeways. :-D

Getting away from freeways and also oil/energy since it's nice to talk about something else for a change.

here's a nice website of technological duds

http://www.retrofuture.com/

The educational and entertainment value is pretty high. :-D

Here are some other technologies that exist but never became popular:
1) the segway
2) maglev trains
3) supersonic passenger flight
4) MHDP (magneto hydro dynamic propulsion)
5) Personal Rapid Transit
6) Monorails

feel free to add to the list. ohh and btw my favorite techno dud on the retro future website is smell-o-vision. :P
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00

Postby I_Like_Plants » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 08:32:42

There's a Salvation Army store near here, where the TVs for sale (the ones that work) always seem to be playing a Star Wars movie lately. It's eerie, the futuristic stuff on Star Wars being shown on all these cast-off TVs, some with the old mechanical ker-chunk ker-chunk tuners, being played while people on the edge of poverty or right in it, rifle through used clothes and are puzzled by the gadgets, like electric carving knives and "executive desk toys" of the energy-rich 1970s.
I_Like_Plants
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3839
Joined: Sun 12 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: 1st territorial capitol of AZ

Postby Wildwell » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 09:17:17

A lot of these ideas come for authors who write sci-fi books, the fact is some things are just not that practical or too costly. Other things are of no real use, or are too complicated to use, have safety problems, or are not really an advancement. There’s also the fear factor, think: GM food, cloning, too much computing power, Nuclear power and so on. Many intelligent’ people that come up with these ideas have no real flair for practicality, and they believe that the more flexible, fast or complicated something is the better. We are the limits in many ways. The laws of physics and geology also play a role.

Flying cars is the classic. There’s no real practical use in taking off, there’s also very significant safety and privacy risks, a good proportion of drivers can’t handle things on the ground, let alone in the air. You simple do not have the space for separation of these things or the fuel to power them. Some people do not service their personal vehicles now or take them to cowboy mechanics. This increases the safety risk many, many times. Don’t think computers are the answer, the irony with computer power, is the more complex you make the circuitry, the more chance of an indeterminate failure. Lastly most trips are to the shops, it would be far quicker to remain on the ground rather than get clearance to fly around the corner! Conclusion. No real use and make everyone’s problems worse.

It’s all quite amusing in some ways. It’s like TV, film and music. It’s amazing how the old stuff keeps coming on round and round again, must be a shortage of new ideas.
User avatar
Wildwell
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu 03 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Postby sklump » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 09:57:40

... but as the economic engine of the world foregoes scientific education in favour of ritual self-abasement to The Deity, the prime force advancing technology will dry up.

Unfortunately, many of the superstitious proles will see the Police State disappearing people as the Oil Crash takes hold, but will register the Rapture and the End Times.

I'm not what you'd call an optimist, here.
As Canadian as ... possible, under the circumstances
User avatar
sklump
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue 17 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Postby cube » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 13:46:34

Here's another flop. Bio-tech. I don't doubt that bio-tech is going to give us something really cool before the 21st century closes. I remember someone boldly stating "the 20th century belonged to physics, but biology will own the 21st century."

However at this point Bio-tech is more about empty promises more so then anything else.

Another flop:
smart freeways -
the idea of increasing the carrying capacity of a freeway by having computers electronically control the cars. You can increase the capacity of a freeway by driving the cars really close together (like 1 meter apart while going 65 mph). If a computer controls this then in it can be done safely.

sorry folks --- not going to happen :P
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00

Postby Dezakin » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 19:19:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ere's another flop. Bio-tech. I don't doubt that bio-tech is going to give us something really cool before the 21st century closes. I remember someone boldly stating "the 20th century belonged to physics, but biology will own the 21st century."

However at this point Bio-tech is more about empty promises more so then anything else.


I doubt your certainty. Simply, while its nearly certain that for the next 20 years biotech will give us little more than new drug adds, its impossible to model anything beyond fifty years with anything approaching confidence.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nother flop:
smart freeways -
the idea of increasing the carrying capacity of a freeway by having computers electronically control the cars. You can increase the capacity of a freeway by driving the cars really close together (like 1 meter apart while going 65 mph). If a computer controls this then in it can be done safely.

sorry folks --- not going to happen


Hmm... The reason I really doubt your certainty on this is this is a function of software and hardware development. Of course it wont happen in 20 years, because theres only so many engineering cycles in those two decades to do concept development. But as more and more people come online into the global economy (not subsistance farming) that includes new R&D, we will have more research being done in parallell, and new technology allows engineering cycles to be faster.

The real kicker comes when we can either simulate a brain in software, or have software that does what humans do some other way. Then your economy is modeled with pure capital rather than labor, which is demand driven, rather than limited by supply of the human population. Need more engineers? Buy more hardware and copy the 'engineer program' onto all of the machines.

Lets assume that we don't develop AI in the 21st century (allthough trends indicate to me its nearly certain sometime within the next 70 years) With China and India developing such that they have first world economies, that vastly increases the number of scientists and engineers developing new products and technologies. You can expect enormous advancements over the next century.
User avatar
Dezakin
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Wed 09 Feb 2005, 04:00:00

Postby Wildwell » Wed 15 Jun 2005, 19:44:19

...Until the AI machines work out humans are a liability or people fear advancements and controls are exercised. That's happening now. Huge intelligence in machines would be an ideal weapon to take down the internet, banks, commerce, the military, just about anything...Can't see that being allowed, then again the nature of consciousness hasn't even been worked out to any great degree or the human brain...so we're a long way from that..
User avatar
Wildwell
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu 03 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Postby aldente » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 02:08:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')Has Monte got rid of his car yet?


Why should he? Do you think he looks better this way?

Image
User avatar
aldente
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 1554
Joined: Fri 20 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Top

Postby k_semler » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 02:27:50

1. I wonder if MQ has the requred ordinance premits for the explosives in that container. I bet the BATFE would be wanting to find that out. (check out the HazMat label on the trailer). 8O

2. If my computer is ever a sentient machine, I will shoot it with a 12 ga slug, and then light it on fire! No machine is going to plot to kill me! I will kill it first. :twisted:
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
k_semler
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon 17 May 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington

Postby Dezakin » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 15:00:57

Wildwell
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..Until the AI machines work out humans are a liability or people fear advancements and controls are exercised.


Too much money to be made I believe. If 'controls' are exercised in one country, research and development will just move to another.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an't see that being allowed, then again the nature of consciousness hasn't even been worked out to any great degree or the human brain...so we're a long way from that..


We aren't a long way from understanding how individual components work, and we have rough simulations of very simple neural networks in software. Soon we'll have an entire nematode simulated in software. After that its just a matter of copying the structures of the brains; even if we don't understand the why we will understand the how.

k_semler
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). If my computer is ever a sentient machine, I will shoot it with a 12 ga slug, and then light it on fire! No machine is going to plot to kill me! I will kill it first.

Why does everyone assume 'terminator' scenario? Or that if machines did become sentient and murderous, why does everyone assume that we could do a damn thing about it?
User avatar
Dezakin
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Wed 09 Feb 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Postby lotrfan55345 » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 17:21:33

Microsoft already has a patent for transferring data and electricity through human skin cells ....

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... /6,754,472
lotrfan55345
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1091
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Minneapolis / Pittsburgh

Postby scordry » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 17:37:30

I think that the whole notion of an economy based on renewable energy will turn out to be a sci-fi dream. All existing renewable energy schemes are ultimately fossil-fuel dependent. Some examples:
*the giant blades of wind-turbines are made from fiberglass-reinforced polyesther
*Hydrogen is derived almost exclusively from natural gas
*Photovoltaics require high-temperature ovens that must be heated with natural gas (as far as I know)

Does anyone know of a renewable energy that wouldn't be fossil-fuel dependent?
User avatar
scordry
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu 19 May 2005, 03:00:00

Postby cube » Thu 16 Jun 2005, 19:34:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')icrosoft already has a patent for transferring data and electricity through human skin cells ....
Have they started working on the software patches yet? :-D

take a look at this

http://www.spaceelevator.com/

I'm going to put this on my list of thigns that are NOT going to happen in the 21st century. :-D
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Top


Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron