[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'T')his works OK for single twentysomethings who don't have kids. Parents with children need more space and privacy.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', 'Y')ea, when those people sell there 3 year old kids into sexual slavery for a $50 they are only doing what their ancestors were always doing... drool drool.... fart... drool...

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'S')ome solutions are better than others.

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'P')rivacy can be a minus in raising kids. Raising kids in an extended family, or amongst a group of parents in the neighborhood, is a lot easier on the parents. It's good for kids too to have different adults and children to interact with.

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I') see their "poverty" not as a negative, but as a positive. It's a virtue to be emulated. We should be learning what they have to teach us, not the other way around. It is affluence which is putting our future at risk, not poverty. Affluence is the negative.

[agni]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', 'Y')ea, when those people sell there 3 year old kids into sexual slavery for a $50 they are only doing what their ancestors were always doing... drool drool.... fart... drool...

[I_Like_Plants]

I read Ehrenreich's book and I admire her for "walking the walk" if only for a brief time, but I think if she'd given herself a 6 months or a year, she'd have learned a few tricks, like you get brown or grey etc shoes because when they get ratty looking, you get 2 marking pens and color 'em black, done right they look really good and you get 2X the life out of them. You look for stuff being thrown out that's useful, give-aways, etc. Work in a restaurant, you'll always eat. I used to, as a kid, help my mom clean hotel rooms because the rooms had fridges in them, and the people would leave food in there. I'd get food I'd never have gotten at home, an afternoon making beds etc after school in exchange for a full stomach was a rare, good, deal. Ehrenreich cleaned houses, there's always chance to "liberate" a bite to eat, just don't take stuff the people care about. Leave the t-bone alone, clean up that bowl of leftover mac and cheese. For a place to live, there are always rooms to rent, no one I ever knew lived in a hotel, rooming houses are not a thing of the past in the US, just kind of underground.

And I've lived on $6000 a year and less, and it's not easy but it's do-able, even at our pre-Crash prices in the US. You walk, bike, or bus if it's cheap enough but often a bike is your best transportation deal. You cook at home, scrounge, don't drink or smoke, know all the libraries, and in general it's not bad. What I look back fondly on is, NO DEBT.

[Doly]

I have a number of friends living in that sort of situation (and I'm myself not too far from it). What you have to realise is that there is an enormous amout of stuff that you can get second-hand or even given to you. And there's a number of ways of getting cheap to free food. People who have lived for a while like that know the tricks. When I look around in my flat, I'm surprised at how little things I have that I have bought first-hand.

[I_Like_Plants]

Where I grew up, there was no free food, not for whites. Where I am now, yes, you are right, there is, right now, no reason for the kind of near-starvation I saw, and was a part of, growing up. Even store-owners etc who are not white, will give to whites who are poor, something that seemed impossible. But it happens, I have seen it! There is just so much, that no one begrudges anyone much of anything, if they need it. It's amazing.

I've seen, grown up in, and survived, somehow, conditions that are a lot harder, and conditions we'll probably see again, and worse, if the shit hits the fan.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')h, they are creating wealth. They are helping society by increasing its net equity. The rich allow the middle class to exist. They subsidize our lifestyle, not the other way around. The rich who sit around and collect income reinvest that money and help the stock market or they spend it and help the economy. Alternatively, they could stick it in a mattress and cause deflation, which will lower the cost of goods and services for everyone else. Whatever they do with the money is good for the economy. I don't really have a problem with people who live off their invested income (the Capitalist Class).

And besides, wealth has to be created before it can be inherited. If someone is super wealthy, it means that somewhere along the lines someone in his family worked his butt off so that his children could live in affluence.

[Raxozanne]

I have been doing a bit of research into allergies (because I am really suffering with hayfever at the moment). I discovered that before 1800 allergies were a rarity. It is a 'Western' epidemic and has increased dramatically in the past 50 years with lots of children with asthma and food allergies now. Pollution and global warming are implicated but the main culprit appears to be the high level of hygiene we live in.

Maybe humans were made to live in the 'dirt' and on the land. I suppose living in the dirt isnt synonymous with poverty but the undeveloped world doesn't suffer from allergies as we are now so maybe their lifestyle is more like man was made for.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', ' ')The economy is measured by the value of goods and services produced.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', ' ')The economy is measured by the value of goods and services produced.

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', '
')Capitalism is based on the belief that people are inherently greedy and will always do whatever it takes to maximize their personal wealth.
History speaks for itself and says much about the true nature of mankind.
To pretend that the capitalist benefits society at large is to ignore the results of capitalism in the US prior to minimum wage laws, anti-trust laws, etc.

[lorenzo]

Just an oblique remark. An interesting approach to the political economy of nations is the new "science of happiness". Famous economists are beginning to approach social systems from this perspective. (See prof Richard Layard's bestselling latest work: "Happiness. Lessons from a New Science").

It won't take long before the "human development index" (a standard used by many policy makers to assess the social conditions of societies, including ultra-complex notions such as "poverty"), is replaced or accompanied by a "universal happiness index".

Many poor nations score very well. Many rich nations score terribly.

[Tyler_JC]

This thread is cornering my inner Objectivist and before I start quoting John Galt, I'm going to leave...and I'll quote Fransico instead.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns—or dollars. Take your choice—there is no other—and your time is running out."

-Fransico's Money Speech

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ommunism is based on the belief that people are basically good and want to contribute to society and have only their fair share of community property.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', 'Y')ea, when those people sell there 3 year old kids into sexual slavery for a $50 they are only doing what their ancestors were always doing... drool drool.... fart... drool...

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ommunism is based on the belief that people are basically good and want to contribute to society and have only their fair share of community property.

[smallpoxgirl]

Wow! Great thread JD! Would have never figured you and me to agree on something like this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('John Denver', 'P')overty confuses me. We're supposed to mobilize and get rid of poverty, but weren't the indians living in poverty?