[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'H')ow about the indios in the Amazon, who've had almost no contact with the modern world? Do we need to airlift some people in there to provide them with sanitary facilities like clean drinking water and proper latrines?

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')nadequate? By whos definition?? I've lived in some pretty low rent places, and they were fine. They kept me warm, they kept me dry. Thats what housing is for isnt it? Just because you dont have 6000 square feet and a spa doesnt mean it doesnt get the job done.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')s for the Native Americans, I believe by today’s standards (not the standards of the early settlers), they would be considered to be quite wealthy.

[Tyler_JC]

Sorry, I'm hijacking this thread and therefore this is my last post on the subject.

The truth of the matter is that if we magically shared everything equally...we would ALL be poor. The median income per person would be somewhere around $6,000. That's not enough to pay for life's essentials. Also, the economy would fall apart if no one could afford fancy things like cars and paint.

Given instant equality, the talented would soon find themselves with all of the wealth again and the poor would go back to being, well, poor. In the process millions would die and everyone would be miserable. There's just not enough stuff to make everyone happy. I'd prefer to hang on to what I have thank you.

As a side note, if someone's only skill is cleaning, how much money should they be paid? Remember, we can't give everyone enough to live like a Patrician. I would pay those people less money than talented workers with advanced degrees. Don't confuse "social justice" idealism with reality, some people are just more talented than others and they deserve higher wages based on their ability. And by the way, where is it written that all men deserve to live like the folks on the hill? And who is to provide this lifestyle?

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')h, they are creating wealth.

[Raxozanne]

The monetary system encourages greed; at least the Utes weren't greedy and destroying the environment even if they were 'poor'.

But as it has been pointed out they didn't see themselves as poor as they had always lived like that.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'H')ow about the indios in the Amazon, who've had almost no contact with the modern world? Do we need to airlift some people in there to provide them with sanitary facilities like clean drinking water and proper latrines?

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'W')ouldn't that be a violation of their human right to clean drinking water and minimal sanitation? And what about the children? Aren't they being deprived of minimal humane health care, and unfairly excluded from educational opportunities?

[Ludi]

I don't think anyone should have to work harder than I do. So poor people who have to work 12+ hour work days in order to have a place to live and some food to eat, in my way of thinking, are being made to work too hard. What's so special about me that I should get to work so little (average 2-3 hrs per day) and others have to work so much? Why should I get paid so much more, just because I have "an advanced degree?" Where's the logic in that? Whoopty-do, I got a degree, doesn't make me special. Our culture is set up to make most people work very hard indeed for life's necessities, unlike the folks who still live as HG, anthropologists say those people work an average of 4 hours a day to obtain the necessities of life. The rest of the time they spend sitting around relaxing, grooming, making art and music, etc. So to me, that should be the standard. It was the standard for about 100,000 years, why should things be different now?

[I_Like_Plants]

yes in the USA poverty means no cable TV and no microwave popcorn.

So, USA-ians see someone living in say a log cabin or a "soddy" in the forest eating game and gathered stuff and some corn etc they've grown, and they scream they're poor!!

Thoreau, living nowadays, would probably be taken to the local mental hospital for "observation" and then set up with mind-altering drugs, and a Section 8 apartment etc.

All because of the threat of a "good example" (not living as an appendage of the Beast).

/rant

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', '
')I just get the feeling that if we tried to provide these things, airlifting in latrines and whatnot, we'd end up effing it up somehow and making things worse than they are. Large, rich cultures don't have a very good track record helping poor, small ones. I see the paradox you're talking about. What are you getting at?

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')That's a very pessimistic take. In most cases, you can argue that the Asian cultures have benefited from the contact with more advanced ones. Japan is a prime example of a highly developed country that wasn't anywhere as developed 100 years ago.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'T')horeau, living nowadays, would probably be taken to the local mental hospital for "observation" and then set up with mind-altering drugs, and a Section 8 apartment etc.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', ' ')I see the paradox you're talking about. What are you getting at?

[Ludi]

But JD, poverty is imposed on people who used to have a way of life which enabled them to work only a few hours a day, now they have to work many more hours for the same things (food, shelter, clothing). In what way is that fair or a "different culture?" It isn't a different culture, it's our culture, which we've imposed on other cultures.

So now that we've screwed them over, we should just leave them in their screwed over position - is that what you're saying? Or are you saying we should allow them or help them regain a different way of life from ours?

The Native Americans are now poor, because they were forced off their land and driven to land where it is very hard to make a living in their original way. So now, we just leave them there to die the rest of the way? Or what?

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'I')'m inclined to think that "poverty" (defined, as it is, as a lack of money) is an ethnocentric, borderline racist concept which is just the latest manifestation of the White Man's Burden. As a concept, "poverty" assumes that American culture (for example) is superior to simpler cultures, and that conflicts with my committment to cultural relativism.

So I don't believe poverty, per se, is a problem we need to fix. If anything, poverty represents a different cultural form which we should respect and learn from.

[agni]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', ' ')
So I don't believe poverty, per se, is a problem we need to fix. If anything, poverty represents a different cultural form which we should respect and learn from.

[tivoli]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'T')he way poverty works in the U.S. is that low wage workers don't earn enough to rent a decent place to live, even though they can afford fast food and consumer crap.

In Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed, she describs how she worked at several low wage jobs in the U.S. and had to spend over 50% of her wages on (inadequate) housing.

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('tivoli', 'H')ow did you get into low rent places? First, last, and a deposit. But when you don't have the money ( say $1000 for a $400/month place ($200 deposit )), then you are shilling out even MORE a month to stay in a hotel with inadequate kitchen facilities and such. That's the dilemma facing a low wage worker. Its not they couldn't afford the monthly, its the upfront outlay to get in...

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'S')ome solutions are better than others.