[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')over the weekend on 60 minutes there was a segment on "robotics" and how its now possible for small mom/pop shops to buy a robot which according to the segment can work about 3 years for about $3 per hour

in other words many mfg jobs are now being brought back to the USA because of advances in robot mfg technology, so in effect those low skill workers in china who displaced low skill US workers are now going to have to compete w/ robots

like it or not this world is going to change between the have and the have nots!

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')over the weekend on 60 minutes there was a segment on "robotics" and how its now possible for small mom/pop shops to buy a robot which according to the segment can work about 3 years for about $3 per hour

in other words many mfg jobs are now being brought back to the USA because of advances in robot mfg technology, so in effect those low skill workers in china who displaced low skill US workers are now going to have to compete w/ robots

like it or not this world is going to change between the have and the have nots!

[phaster]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')over the weekend on 60 minutes there was a segment on "robotics" and how its now possible for small mom/pop shops to buy a robot which according to the segment can work about 3 years for about $3 per hour

in other words many mfg jobs are now being brought back to the USA because of advances in robot mfg technology, so in effect those low skill workers in china who displaced low skill US workers are now going to have to compete w/ robots

like it or not this world is going to change between the have and the have nots!

[americandream]

The USA is still very much a super power, but a superpower based around its elite (England's bourgeosie sit at the top of the global pyramid of elite relations). The American working class are a mere extension of the global working class. Powerless and simply units of consumerism.

[phaster]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')he USA is still very much a super power, but a superpower based around its elite (England's bourgeosie sit at the top of the global pyramid of elite relations). The American working class are a mere extension of the global working class. Powerless and simply units of consumerism.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'T')he USA is still very much a super power, but a superpower based around its elite (England's bourgeosie sit at the top of the global pyramid of elite relations). The American working class are a mere extension of the global working class. Powerless and simply units of consumerism.

[americandream]

For example, Syria is a good contemporary example of cultural dominion by a particular segment of the global elite.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')Automation is an important topic, too much neglected by peak oilers. I once thought that economic decline would reduce companies' ability to make capital investments in automation, but the Great Recession has clearly falsified that hypothesis. If anything automation has accelerated, “improving” labor productivity figures are regularly trumpeted by the chattering classes, but the role this plays in the jobless recovery is obvious.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')
IMHO the USSR was also a super power BUT only in the military sense!

[ralfy]

From what I remember, the energy costs and return requirements for the U.S. are significantly high, e.g., food has to travel thousands of miles to reach dinner tables, and trucks have to operate 24/7 allowing towns and cities to stock only around two weeks' or so worth of food, medicine, and fuel. Also, we need to look at arable land and water availability, and not necessarily land availability.

With that, it is likely that in the long run all regions will be affected by the loss of cheap energy and will adjust accordingly. That will mean populations situated near places where arable land and water are available, and then engage in localization. Whatever gas or oil is available will be used for transporting medicine and other needs that cannot be obtained locally, if not transport necessary raw materials from other areas by ship.

Finally, if armed groups such as military forces take control of resources, they will probably do so for their own benefit and for their immediate families. And as resources and energy become increasingly scarce, they may, like armed civilians, start turning on each other.

[dolanbaker]

It seems to me that the economic world is reverting to a pre-industrial status quo, one where you have a small elite followed by a relatively small professional class, tradesmen and then the rest(workers)!

Before the industrial revolution, most people were on a subsistence level of income that covered their basic essentials and nothing else (today that's classed as poverty). Industrialisation brought most of these people into a situation where they had to earn more to remain in the workforce as they now had to buy stuff rather than be almost self sufficient in their previous lives. Chinese workers are experiencing this right now in the same way as English workers did 200 years ago.

During the second half of the 20th century werkers were in great demand and were able to obtain a much larger larger share of the cake which in turn bumped of the share to the tradesmen & professionals, this trend has now stopped and has been in reverse ever since globalisation took hold in the 1990s

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('radon1', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('phaster', '
')
IMHO the USSR was also a super power BUT only in the military sense!

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', 'I')t seems to me that the economic world is reverting to a pre-industrial status quo, one where you have a small elite followed by a relatively small professional class, tradesmen and then the rest(workers)!

Before the industrial revolution, most people were on a subsistence level of income that covered their basic essentials and nothing else (today that's classed as poverty). Industrialisation brought most of these people into a situation where they had to earn more to remain in the workforce as they now had to buy stuff rather than be almost self sufficient in their previous lives. Chinese workers are experiencing this right now in the same way as English workers did 200 years ago.

During the second half of the 20th century werkers were in great demand and were able to obtain a much larger larger share of the cake which in turn bumped of the share to the tradesmen & professionals, this trend has now stopped and has been in reverse ever since globalisation took hold in the 1990s

[Pops]

In the context of PO, isn't the question: are "robots" (machines) more energy efficient than humans?

That's the subtext here, declining fossil energy availability and increasing cost will eventually make the brute force solutions more expensive - hydrocarbon "assisted" ditch digging for example. But at some point will increasing FF costs and falling demand for middle class, semi-skilled workers replaced by software, combine to make ditch digging again a valid career path?

Or will the increasing efficiency of robots continue to replace people to the extent that the profits can be socialized instead of just the costs?

Really, those are the only 2 outcomes aren't they?

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')n the context of PO, isn't the question: are "robots" (machines) more energy efficient than humans?

That's the subtext here, declining fossil energy availability and increasing cost will eventually make the brute force solutions more expensive - hydrocarbon "assisted" ditch digging for example. But at some point will increasing FF costs and falling demand for middle class, semi-skilled workers replaced by software, combine to make ditch digging again a valid career path?

Or will the increasing efficiency of robots continue to replace people to the extent that the profits can be socialized instead of just the costs?

Really, those are the only 2 outcomes aren't they?

[SeaGypsy]

That's funny, the Marxist lecturing on the necessity of 'gainful employment' while paying his bills by playing the market

[SeaGypsy]

Just a thought: so much moralizing rooted in work ethic, while none about the fact that the vast majority of essential work is already done by machines and reliant on oil (and other FF's). What is our average western energy slave count now?- Well over 100, I read a figure of 140+ 24/7 energy slaves for each American- so actually the vast majority of what people get, they get effectively free. Their 'work' is so often of no import to anything or so little it's laughable, and so often those taking the most of the pie (running the most energy slaves) are the very least essential to anyone's actual needs.

Whether at the right, left or middle of the spectrum politically, there seems to be a consensus in willful blindness to the fact of our values system created economic myths being largely nothing more than a social construct. We are already potentially capable of a near Utopic reality. The fact that a dirt farmer is often not better off in their personal finances than someone who literally does nothing, while someone who 'sells real estate' or designs/ administers contracts (or 'acts', does music or ball sports) can make megabucks- all give away the lie of how the system and our generally accepted collective beliefs manipulate our views of ourselves and each other, as well as how primitive we mostly still are in our thinking. The system is basically a giant scam. People should do themselves (and each other) a favor and see it for what it is.

[ROCKMAN]

SG - True that there are some "dirt farmers" not doing very well. But I've dealt with many Texas "dirt farmers" and scrub cattle ranchers in my leasing efforts and the vast majority are rather wealthy from those activities. In fact I can't think of one in the last 38 years that anyone would consider poor. And that's not counting the $billions they've received in oil/NG royalties. I do appreciate the romantic image of the struggling farmer. And there are farmers/ranchers that do lose their properties every year. But there are a lot of other BUSINESSES that go bankrupt every year.

Maybe Texas farmers/ranchers, just like all other Texans, are just that much talented than everyone else. LOL.

[SeaGypsy]

Yes, but this completely misses my point Rock. Either you get what I'm on about or you don't. It's not about specific means of 'making a living' it's about what bullcrap it is that if people don't 'work' (be 'productive') they starve.