[NickyBoy]

We are, inevitably, approaching the point where no-one needs to work to provide the items required to support human existence. That’s not an environment within which capitalism can survive as the fundamental driving principal of economic activity.

There is a transition coming. The increasing economic turbulence that has been felt since the dawn of the industrial revolution is its precursor and it's only going to get worse until that transition is made.

Whether that transition is into a more advanced continually expanding state that totally removes the need for human work, or we cock it up and end up in a regression into a less advanced more stable state that returns everyone to supporting themselves, remains to be seen.

Either way, our current economic system will be dead within our lifetimes. We can't have capitalism without customers!

[SeaGypsy]

I live in one of the most Keynesian economies in the world. Without mining Australia would mostly be up the proverbial creek in barbed wire canoe without a paddle, with mining and Keynesian application of welfare we have one of the leading economies in the world. There isn't much reason why most people can't be on handouts, a bit of a service economy, a bit of digging holes and mass agriculture; a semblance of 'capitalism' for a long time to come yet.

(Lol! we both joined the same day Nick )

[Lore]

And wouldn't it be a better world if people didn't have to worry about making a buck, or greedily making more just to buy more "stuff" and concentrate on the things in life that really mattered?

[SeaGypsy]

Lore, if by 'better' you mean being able to walk miles in every city without being hit on by beggars- yep I reckon. Here, if I bump into someone really down on their luck, I can march with them into Centerlink (SSO) and within hours that person will have a welfare check, unless they are an illegal migrant. We do have pockets of poverty for sure, but it's mostly about drugs and alcohol and mental health problems. Virtually nobody ever loses their home over a medical condition.

I recently moved to one of the highest unemployment parts of Australia- against my will as I am used to making fairly good money- my wife fell in love with the place. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world, lots of intentional communities, subtropical climate, very low crime rate, very friendly country town. 25% unemployment, about double that on aged and disability or parenting payments; amazing surf, forest, almost have to pinch myself how lovely life is here- even though we are at the very bottom of the economic pile here.

Another upside is I quit all my bad habits, smoking, drinking alcohol, don't need to drive at all, cheap rent, lots of time to get into hobbies. I just joined a community 'men's shed' for $25 a year I have access to a shed full of tools. I'm turning my caravan into a houseboat and building a solar powered electric canoe and an outrigger sailboat. Having heaps of fun. (About the only thing I'm missing from the money times is regular trips overseas- which kind of runs against my grain as a peaker and a greeny anyhow!) The kids love it here, my wife is happy for the first time in the years we have been married.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '.')..
Having heaps of fun... The kids love it here, my wife is happy for the first time in the years we have been married.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NickyBoy', 'W')e are, inevitably, approaching the point where no-one needs to work to provide the items required to support human existence. That’s not an environment within which capitalism can survive as the fundamental driving principal of economic activity.

[SeaGypsy]

The American poor need to wake up to the fact they are being as they have been for some time, conned by the far right. There should be no need for the often dire poverty one finds in the USA. There are good things about American traditional values such as self reliance, to a point. It being ok that the richest tiny percentile live like royals of a few decades ago could have only dreamed while those unfortunate enough for whatever reason to have lost their job and run out of benefits can find themselves living in a car or a tent with their kids on food stamps... in the richest country in the world.... makes no real sense.

The best thing about American culture IMO is the strength of traditional crafts. Glass making, boat building, metalwork and woodcrafts are all skills I have learned, beginning with my American father and continuing after his life- very often almost exclusively finding those at the pinnacle of these crafts are in the good ole' USA.

If/ when Americans get off their butts on election day, after having educated themselves about the realities of economics and value of Keynes ideas in a highly industrialized economy (in a post peak world)- again America may become the greatest country in which to live.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '.')..
Automation long ago was the means to paradise on earth...

[KaiserJeep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he American poor need to wake up to the fact they are being as they have been for some time, conned by the far right. There should be no need for the often dire poverty one finds in the USA. There are good things about American traditional values such as self reliance, to a point. It being ok that the richest tiny percentile live like royals of a few decades ago could have only dreamed while those unfortunate enough for whatever reason to have lost their job and run out of benefits can find themselves living in a car or a tent with their kids on food stamps... in the richest country in the world.... makes no real sense.

-snip-

[Pops]

State legislatures have much more to do with the poverty of their citizens than cities.

Post a top 10 of the poorests states and aside from DC I bet they'd all be red, and all take more from the federal till to boot.

I could be wrong but I don't think so...

[Pops]

But aside from the same-old left/right, there seems only a couple of options.

First, it's Utopia Catered By Robots. This version is where the robots are all good, doing everything including the dishes (well, putting them in the DW Robot and taking them out), manufactured all the stuff (and of course themselves) as well as making decisions and performing services carried out by doctor robots, lawyer robots, pretty well everything you could name I guess.

Of course this takes for granted that whatever physical limits there might be... aren't.
And that the old paradigm of work=money=consumption goes away
And I'm guessing that means the idea of return on investment goes away too


Isn't the other option then Dystopia Catered By Robots?
Basically this is any version starring Arnold, although they've skipped the walking robocop and gone straight to the flying, Hellfire spouting kind.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he American poor need to wake up to the fact they are being as they have been for some time, conned by the far right. There should be no need for the often dire poverty one finds in the USA.

[KaiserJeep]

For the record, I'm a senior citizen who has lived in New Orleans, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, NYC, and a few other places. The only election I ever missed voting in was when I was in the military during Vietnam. I also minored in History and have been a Historical Society member for 38 years, History is a passion of mine. I am an amused observer of Politics and an independant thinker. Do you know the origins of the two major parties?

Do you remember that Abraham Lincoln founded a political party (still around today) whose main political plank was the emancipation of Black slaves, and the outright elimination of slavery?

Do you know that a few years before that, Andrew Jackson founded another political party (still around today) whose main planks were the forced relocation of Native Americans to the "Indian Territory", and the specific support of both Black slavery and the "rights" of slave owners? In fact, Jackson was of the Southern aristocracy and owned a very large cotton plantation and 150 Black slaves.

Do you know which of these two political parties made the "New Deal" during the Great Depression of the 1930's, and the "Great Society" of the 1960's, declaring a "War on Poverty", an end to racism, and created massive entitlement programs that have simultaneously impoverished much of the US Middle Class, created a huge National Debt, and effectively oppressed all of the inner city Black populations?

That would be the same political party that today controls Chicago, NYC, New Orleans, St. Louis, Washington DC, and which has just run Detroit into the ground. The same party that all of the "race baiters" like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Barack Obama belong to. The same political party that was a haven for the extreme right wing of US politics in the 1950s/1960s (i.e. the Dixiecrats) and to which virtually every member of the KKK, present and past, has been a member.

THINK ABOUT IT. Ignore irrelevant rhetoric from lying politicians, and look at the net result of what they have actually done. Think about the results of all these actions throughout history. You already know and understand why racism still exists in America.

I'm just pointing out that when you become a student of actions versus rhetoric, many of the popular and widely accepted misconceptions evaporate. For example, Republicans are not oppressing the poor or people of color, but Democrats certainly are.

But the number one priority of both Republicans and Democrats is the lining of their own pockets with money extorted from taxpayers.

Now I'm ready to talk about the Economy, if you will refrain from tossing in totally bogus comments about the "far Right" or the "far Left". Because I will call you on those misconceptions.

[SeaGypsy]

Ok truce on the politics already, I don't care much for the subject anyhow. My angle you chose to go ballistic on is about economics and social integration, the comparison between more and less Keynesian economic paradigms. I don't have the cure for America's ills any more than you do. My suggestion is a response to Nick's post declaring capitalism a dead duck simply because of technology replacing swathes of labour- a myth. My declaration that there should be no need for Americans to live in desperation stands. The state of the Union is not fantastic and many of the problems are not curable in any quick fix scenario.

[KaiserJeep]

Well, for all of our economic ills, there is still a long line waiting to get into this country. We still have the highest standard of living of any major country, and we will survive the end of cheap energy.

The reason being that those with disposable income will survive, while those who are just scraping by will die. Most Americans will no longer be able to afford a motorized vehicle or a bigscreen TV or a new smartphone every year, but we won't starve come the end of cheap energy.

[ralfy]

Outside politics, credit, and birth control through incentives, one can look at this issue in terms of resource availability:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _footprint

That is, the ave. ecological footprint per capita is around 2.7 global hectares, similar to the ave. footprint of Turkey, but bio-capacity is only around 1.8, a bit higher than the footprint of Myanmar.

If high footprint and availability of credit is influenced solely by politics, i.e., governments and businesses ensure both in exchange for the vote and profits, respectively, then citizens will be able to survive even without cheap energy. But if it is cheap energy that ensures a high footprint and gives value to credit through increased extraction and use of resources, then credit will matter less without cheap energy.

Similarly, if incentives for having fewer children is brought about by credit, and if that credit is ultimately propped up by availability of resources thanks to cheap energy, then those incentives will diminish without cheap energy.

Finally, one may expect the demand for a higher ave. footprint to rise as more people require at least basic needs while bio-capacity per capita drops due to combinations of higher population and environmental damaged coupled with global warming.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'W')e still have the highest standard of living of any major country, and we will survive the end of cheap energy.

The reason being that those with disposable income will survive, while those who are just scraping by will die... but we won't starve come the end of cheap energy.

[KaiserJeep]

You've got too many mistaken pre-conceptions about America to count. But certainly all the Western cultures have more disposable income than Asia or Africa or the Middle East.

The end of cheap energy will see the blurring of borders in Europe and quite a few human migrations. But most of Europe should survive the end of oil, whereas most of Africa and Asia and the ME will not. Most of America will both survive and thrive, although we will lose the inner cities. Australia I don't know enough about to comment on, but whatever portion of the population lives within about a 50 mile radius of food production will survive. The remainder has the option of moving, the continent is relatively uncrowded at least.

A significant portion of US mechanized food production already uses propane or compressed natural gas for fuel, for example - the remainder can be cheaply converted. The current popularity of hydraulic fracking to produce natural gas will ensure that we have food for decades after the liquid fuels are too expensive to use. Our essential food distribution via heavy trucks and trains can be converted from diesel to liquified natural gas with little disruption. We will cease exporting food and our own citizens will be relatively poorer, but we will not be starving. Unlike most of the human race.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'Y')ou've got too many mistaken pre-conceptions about America to count.