[Zentric]

Thank you, everyone, for answering my smartass question.

It is bad enough we now face a huge financial crisis and the solid prospect of living in a fascist state in the near future. But what bothers me at the moment is how the Republicans might soon make claims upon those in debt.

For example, say you owe $200,000 on a house that will soon be worth on $100,000, post-crash. Realizing after the fact that the whole American economy was just a pipe dream, you decide the best thing is simply to walk away from your debt obligation and look to sharecrop for somebody else. Will the government let you do this, or will it otherwise insist on your allegiance? Your interviewer will ask you questions like, "Are you a Republican or Democrat? A church-goer? Born again? Know anyone who takes drugs?" Answer wrong and then maybe a government-sponsored work camp would be a better fit for you. And at this particular camp, more goes on than just the picking of spinach.

For lack of a better term, a "purge" could begin taking hold as soon as a good portion of Americans realize they're broke, hungry, and have few options.

My best guess is that the present administration does have a plan for making us voluntarily trade in the "good life" for bleak servitude.

Anyone have an idea at what this plan might be? Anyone know the fine points of the new bankruptcy bill that is to kick in, I believe, in October?

[Ludi]

I worry about debtors' prison coming back in style, and of course the use of prisoners for labor, as this is already done.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'T')hank you, everyone, for answering my smartass question.

It is bad enough we now face a huge financial crisis and the solid prospect of living in a fascist state in the near future. But what bothers me at the moment is how the Republicans might soon make claims upon those in debt.

For example, say you owe $200,000 on a house that will soon be worth on $100,000, post-crash. Realizing after the fact that the whole American economy was just a pipe dream, you decide the best thing is simply to walk away from your debt obligation and look to sharecrop for somebody else. Will the government let you do this, or will it otherwise insist on your allegiance? Your interviewer will ask you questions like, "Are you a Republican or Democrat? A church-goer? Born again? Know anyone who takes drugs?" Answer wrong and then maybe a government-sponsored work camp would be a better fit for you. And at this particular camp, more goes on than just the picking of spinach.

For lack of a better term, a "purge" could begin taking hold as soon as a good portion of Americans realize they're broke, hungry, and have few options.

My best guess is that the present administration does have a plan for making us voluntarily trade in the "good life" for bleak servitude.

Anyone have an idea at what this plan might be? Anyone know the fine points of the new bankruptcy bill that is to kick in, I believe, in October?

[FoxV]

it makes you kind of wonder where they're all going with the new bankruptcy laws, credit card rules and the national ID system along with the patriot act to snoop on anything you do.

If you owe a large amount of money and can never possibly pay it pack, but the court rules you cannot declare bankruptcy, then what? Prison?

[jboogy]

the way i see this possibly going down is that first off economy crashes , massive unemployment - which leads to huge numbers of mortgage defaults . the fly in the ointment for the neo-cons and their handlers is the huge numbers of private gun -owners in this country . they risk revolution if large numbers face starvation . their solution may be huge tracts of land converted to farming / government owned farming "cities"if you please . self contained , sewage , electricity , potable water . acres and acres of those big metal quonset huts , a.k.a. gomer pyle t.v. show huts . your still "free" , but realistically if you want to survive you become subsistence farmers on government owned land , enough people will go for it , thus rendering the numbers required for armed revolt insufficient , meanwhile the cash rich scarf up real-estate for pennies on the dollar

[ArimoDave]

I'm begining to wonder: Are we not about due for a major march on Washington? If so, which
segment of society is it going to be. Will the National Guard be called in -- Oops, they're in Iraq at
the moment, and about to be in Iran. Ooh, a good time to march on Washington -- No resistance.

I hope this isn't considered being too subversive. I am just wondering.

ArimoDave

[Zentric]

Here is an instance where discussion cleared things up quite a bit.

The idea I wasn't yet familiar with is 'sharecropping'. The government or creditor doesn't necessarily want to pay you an hourly rate to farm, but what they do want is a percent of your crops. You might be starving, stranded, and all-consumed with your farming work, but still you'll be free. HaHa!

If I can indulge you with one other question, what do you figure would be the difference, in the eyes of the Government or your creditor, between 'Person A' with $50,000 in debt, and 'Person B' with $200,000 in debt, since the debt is bound to be just as insurmountable for either? Will Person B be granted fewer rights, options or mobility than Person A?

Without anticipating this kind of graduated "rights" systems, then what would stop me, realizing the economy is about to tank forever, to take another $100K from my home equity line of credit, increasing my debt to $300K, and simply forking it over to my son as a lump sum gift for college, figuring I'm destined to be a sharecropper for the rest of my useful life, regardless.

Or how about taking that same $100K, give it to my daughter, saying, "Buy gold, young lady, since the day may come, after the economy tanks, where you can convert back just a small amount of this metal to purchase your father's freedom."

All this hypothetically-speaking, of course.

[Jack]

The problem with your solution is that such transfers would be regarded as fraudulent. If they occurred within the prior 4 years, a court (bankruptcy or civil) could force the recipient to disgorge the money for the benefit of creditors.

So, to accomplish that end, one would have to conceal their assets from creditors and the court. This would almost certainly necessitate perjury.

The question becomes, how should one conceal assets. One could convert to gold (or other compact form) and carry it with them, but they now become a target for crime. If the money is taken to a bank - even if it is subsequently wired offshore - a paper trail is created. Schemes such as transferring the money to a relative generally create paper trails also. Some choose to transfer the cash directly out of the country; however, for amounts over $5,000 a FCTR has to be filed - failure to do so is a criminal offense.

Thus, the problem is not the debt - rather, it is the attempt to conceal assets. That's what is most likely to get people into trouble. The person with $1,000 worth of concealed assets might not be worth prosecuting - but the one with $100,000 probably would be.

[Macsporan]

It is a cliché among Leftists that the world can have only two outcomes: socialism or barbarism. This was never more true than with PO. I take it as given that nothing can save our present civilisation. It is not sustainable, no matter how you slice the salami.

Once the SHTF there are two possible outcomes. "Socialism": we engineer a long-term solution based upon renewable energy that will at least preserve important aspects of our current civilisation. These are electricity, railways, sailing-ships, small urban centres, recycling and the accumulated technological knowledge of the human race. This I believe can be attained by the rapid installation of solar and wind power generation and a last desperate effort at discovery in these areas while we still have the capacity for large-scale scientific and technological research, coupled with a prudent, not to say, stingy allocation of surviving fossil fuels. If this can be done I envisage a sustainable society set at about the level of the US in 1850 AD.

The alternative, "barbarism", has been well-rehearsed in these forum. After a massive, traumatic population crash we get something Europe in 750 AD, low-level subsistence farming, primitive technology, rampant superstition, no travel, little trade, no lights after dark and no hope.

I call the first alternative 'socialism' not because it bears any great resemblance to the doctrines of 19th Century ideologues, but because in order to achieve it we must abandon once and for all abandon the false gods of the so-called free market, strengthen the power of the state and work our asses off for the next generation or two to achieve it just like the Soviets did with their Five Year Plans.

Please note that what I call "socialism" is not going to be heaven on earth. It will be marred by all the usual human vices and failings including gross inequality, but it is going to be a whole lot better than barbarism. The folks of the Fossi-fuel era might have been able to dream of Capitalist and Socialist paradises but we of the PO era are going to have to be satisfied with a lot less.

It may be that in such a situation democracy is a luxury we cannot afford. Still less can we afford open disaffection, rebellion, secession or various forms of terrorism or guerilla war on the part of those who don’t see things our way. For some of them repression may be the only answer and yes, the end—a sustainable 1850's style civilisation—may justify the means—a generation or so of hard, work, frugality and repression.

Once this new civilisation—call it "Electric Byzantine" if you will, meaning the successor civilisation to our modern debauched "Neo-Roman Empire", has been established, I see no reason why the repression should end and a more relaxed political order be restored, but that's for future generations and is not our concern.

The alternative, as I see it, is the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and more importantly almost everything mankind has achieved in the last 5000 years, including not just freedom, but any future chance of freedom.

Please bear in mind that almost every civilisation known has required a great deal of suffering on someone's part to get it started. Two examples: Early modern European was built on the backs of kidnapped and enslaved Africans, Industrial Civilisation was built on the backs of the hapless denizens of England's Dark Satanic Mills.

Electric Byzantine Civilisation will alas, be no different.

None of this is pretty but if PO is real it deserves our consideration. What do you think?

[Zentric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Macsporan', 'T')he alternative, as I see it, is the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and more importantly almost everything mankind has achieved in the last 5000 years, including not just freedom, but any future chance of freedom.

Please bear in mind that almost every civilisation known has required a great deal of suffering on someone's part to get it started. Two examples: Early modern European was built on the backs of kidnapped and enslaved Africans, Industrial Civilisation was built on the backs of the hapless denizens of England's Dark Satanic Mills.

Electric Byzantine Civilisation will alas, be no different.

None of this is pretty but if PO is real it deserves our consideration. What do you think?

[Macsporan]

I prefer to believe that Electric Byzantine civilisation can come into being without large-scale coercion and repression, but I feel we must at least contemplate the possibility that it will not.

It is far more likely IMHO that Democracy will be destroyed by the Right, rather than the Left. A fascist regime will try to maintain the present system at all cost. This will end in war with just about everyone in Eurasia as the Eurasians will want the oil for themselves and will be unsympathetic to the claims of American intruders, especially as said intruders have accumulated a large number of enemies over the years.

Such a war can have but two endings: nuclear obliteration or American defeat. Of the first ending little needs to be said. We're straight back to 750 AD, if we're lucky. Of the second, a crushing defeat might just cause the discredit and fall of the fascists and a chance, a last chance, to try for 1850 AD. Of course much time and resources (including people) will have been wasted and the chances of success much reduced, but in that situation of looming disintegration and hunger people might be willing to give something else a try. "The Right's failed completely, lets give these Greenies a go." This I believe is what will happen. The last lash of the dying Empire followed by an attempt at Electric Byzantium. It is something to hope for and we just might pull if off.

Your point about pursuing low-energy lifestyle is a good one. If a good many people do this and their ideas become popular the way might be made smooth, but that fact remains that the physical, cultural and intellectual structure of civilisation will have to be rebuilt from the ground up quite quickly. This present civilisation was constructed and perfected in about four generations with plentiful energy supplies. We will have to replace it in about one generation in a situation of increasing energy shortage. This will be a painful process. A terribly painful process in which success is by no means assured, but sometimes people can be unbelievably heroic, especially if they have no choice. Given the stark choice between 750 and 1850 I think I know which way they'll go.

In that sense at least I am an optimist.

PS By the way "Electric Byzantium" "Steam Byzantium" "Solar Byzantium"? Which sounds coolest?

[Zentric]

Knowing how the Repugs propaganda machine works; how they've successfully reverse-engineered the thought processes of the dull American mind; how through insidious degrees they've managed to corrupt, co-opt or neutralize just about everything they've come in contact with, I fear that Americans will discover they've been had only after their fate has been sealed, as they watch the rest of the world cut and run from us as though we were lepers. Or, worse, through successful scapegoating, Americans will see our work as 'glorious' and cheer as we let the missles fly.

Shouldn't the Dem's be staging a major opposition sometime soon? Even if it's a longshot I think they should at least give it a try.

Unopposed, then either the Crusades or Armageddon will happen - the prospect of which makes some in the Christian Right giddy. Terrorists.

Fighting for peace and freedom sure is tough work.

Later.

[Markos101]

Bush has indeed recently signed into law new bankruptcy laws which ask for means-testing to be carried out on all bankruptcies. That means no bankruptcies will be able to occur without the government looking at all your finances.

Best thing I can think of is, form a corporation (its actually only a couple of bits of paper in an office and costs around $50 to form), and sell your house to that corporation. Maintain 100% shareholding in it, and then when the SHTF, bankrupt the corporation. In that case, the debt is nothing to do with you.

Mark

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Markos101', 'B')ush has indeed recently signed into law new bankruptcy laws which ask for means-testing to be carried out on all bankruptcies. That means no bankruptcies will be able to occur without the government looking at all your finances.

Best thing I can think of is, form a corporation (its actually only a couple of bits of paper in an office and costs around $50 to form), and sell your house to that corporation. Maintain 100% shareholding in it, and then when the SHTF, bankrupt the corporation. In that case, the debt is nothing to do with you.

Mark

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'W')hile the US is still the US, we could enact some sort of new "grunge culture", where people, by lifestyle choice, simply choose not to consume that much energy...The movement will be intellectual and secular, so it won't appeal to everyone, but it will also be nonthreatening and should be allowed to prosper and grow. .

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')A lot of people are doing this already - the Voluntary Simplicity Movement, the Intentional Community Movement, the Walk Away/New Tribal Movement. There's no reason not to live these ways now, many people find it preferable to the current mainstream culture.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'I') have one starting very close to my home, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
Community Solution: Agraria
I may even be a part, if I can convince my wife to go along.

[Zentric]

As an update, the following speaks of a California law, that apparently lets one walk away from his mortgage even after the home's value drops to less than what is owed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') little known set of statutes offers buyers of real property in California big protection. These statutes were passed during the Depression, and were intended to protect buyers from personal liability if they defaulted and the lender foreclosed on property that had dropped in value. Here's how they work: if a borrower doesn't make his payments and the loan is secured against the property by a recorded deed of trust, the lender has the right to foreclose and take the property away from the buyer. Prior to the Depression, the lender would then determine whether the value of the property was equal to the loan balance. If it wasn't, the lender would turn around and sue the borrower for the difference. So many people were forced into poverty because of these "deficiency" lawsuits that the California legislature rebelled and passed the anti-deficiency statutes to prevent lenders from suing borrowers who had already lost their homes.

The legislature was primarily interested in protecting homeowners. Therefore, the anti-deficiency statutes don't protect all borrowers. However, if a person borrows money to buy residential property of four or fewer units and lives in it; if the seller carries back a purchase money loan on either residential or commercial property; or if the lender forecloses under the deed of trust (as opposed to filing a formal lawsuit to foreclose), then he cannot sue the borrower for any deficiency.

In the late 1980's, many borrowers simply walked away from real property they had purchased and stopped paying their loans. They did so because they found that, with plummeting real estate prices, they owed more than the properties were worth. They were not personally liable for any unpaid loan balance that remained due after the lender foreclosed, and went on to start their lives anew. Lenders dislike the anti-deficiency statutes, but the legislature has consistently refused to repeal them, and the California Supreme Court recently reaffirmed their importance.

[I_Like_Plants]

What's to keep regular American citizens to just "take off into the woods and live like Indians"?

What about our urban hunter-gatherers, AKA homeless, some of which are obviously hurting, but many of which don't even look homeless until you look closely. They're sure not slaving away to pay taxes so Bush can buy warplanes.

What about the people described in the book "Better Off"? Most seem to be making a few thousand dollars a year, not enough to tax, and are well fed and happy, living with less modern conveniences than most Amish use (the "minimites" use no phones, no motors at all, etc.)

What about a guy I've talked to downtown here a couple of times, on disability and Section 8 because of "stress" who hangs out and shoots the bull? He doesn't work, seems perfectly able to, is just onto a good scam. He's not slaving away for the banks and the IRS and the credit card industry etc.

I'd call this general classification of people "escaped slaves". People in the US are raised, almost all of us, conditioned to work hard to get into college to work hard to get a degree to work hard to find a job to work hard to buy a house and work hard to get a new car and work hard to get their kids into college ...... etc. With liberal amounts skimmed off in taxes all along, "forced" purchases of McMansion, cars, bigscreen TVs and lots and lots and lots of gas and supermarket food. A present day "good citizen" is plugged in as completely as one of the human-batteries in The Matrix. These are the people who benefit the system, allow whoever's in charge to wage wars and commandeer resources on the other side of the world etc.

And then you have these escaped slaves. Some consciously, some just through ineptitude and inability to fit into the system, are living OK and not paying into it. They're escaped slaves, free-range humans. The system has to hate that kind of thing, which is probably why there are so many laws against homeless people owning things (their packpacks etc are regularly taken away so personal papers are lost etc.) and against cheap places to live etc. It has to seem like a horrible fate to not be plugged into the system!

I know one person who is bicycle-only and has a section 8 apartment, and is actually getting along OK, but all she talks about is someday getting a car. A homeless person I've talked with a bit wants nothing more than to be plugged into the system again, working some job that will leave her with less money for food and coffee etc than she gets begging now. Most of our "unplugged human battery units" are scared to death of being seperated from the system, and the idea of living as a self-respecting free-range human scares them to death. That's how strong the programming is.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I just think the concept of "free range" humans or "escaped slaves" is a good one. I think that with no real "social contract" any more in the USA, many of our working class would leave the system in droves, and all that keeps them from doing it is the programming from childhood on that instills a very deep fear of leaving the cage. I think that fear is at least that strong or stronger in the middle class.

I think Jim Merkel, in his book Radical Simplicity, makes, and is living, a very good point. If you don't like what the system is doing, stop slaving your life away to pay the system.

[shakespear1]

You have a point there. Most people today could not fix a leaky faucet. The do it all people are in a strong minority.

We are raised on NEW. There is always something NEW and instinctively I think we are by nature lazy creatures. Given the chance we will seek the DO nothing option. Thus if the store has a new faucet, hell get it and forget about the old one. Or hire someone else to do it.

It is this attitude that has exploded resulting in so many helpless people that without the SYSTEM would find it hard to live.

But given the shock the old "can do" ability would return but at a huge price.