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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Time to buy oil?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Time to buy oil?

Unread postby Leanan » Sat 11 Jun 2005, 18:51:59

CNN has an article about how to adjust your portfolio, now that we've reached the midpoint of the year:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/10/pf/mid- ... /index.htm

They think it's time to sell oil:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you have held oil or other basic materials stocks for a while, you've done well. It's time to take profits and diversify. These industries tend to outperform at the start of a recovery, when growth is at its peak.


If people really do this, it could be a buying opportunity. Or maybe oil would be even higher now, except that many traders are still expecting it to go lower, as has been the pattern in the past?
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Unread postby gt1370a » Sat 11 Jun 2005, 19:44:34

That sounds like a great way to transfer more wealth from the working class to the super rich!

Two times that article said "the price of oil is falling". Where do they get that idea? On Friday oil hit a high of $55 and settled at $53.50. We're just at the beginning of a high-demand season, and a hurricane season, and there's "no spare capacity".

I tend to think things will turn out more like the Goldman Sachs Superspike report predicts. If so, then you are right, this could present a good buying opportunity.
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Unread postby Leanan » Sat 11 Jun 2005, 22:26:24

Agree that saying oil is dropping is a bit premature.

Image

It's not rising like it was, but that could be strictly temporary.
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Unread postby jaws » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 00:52:45

Even if peak oil is 20 years away, the world right now is going through a massive economic transformation. Economic growth at the scale of China and India (two and a half billion people) has never been seen, and it is creating huge demand for all commodities, natural resources topping the list. I would buy oil, gold, steel, lumber, any commodities.
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Unread postby MicroHydro » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 01:17:45

Note there is a difference between oil (or gold) stocks and oil (or gold) futures. Most investors use extraction industry stocks as a surrogate for commodities. One can do this, but recall that Enron and Yukos were once highly touted stocks. I am more comfortable with owning actual commodities, as there are many transparency issues with stocks. We have certainly learned that many corporate annual reports are works of fiction.
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Unread postby joewp » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 02:25:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'N')ote there is a difference between oil (or gold) stocks and oil (or gold) futures. Most investors use extraction industry stocks as a surrogate for commodities. One can do this, but recall that Enron and Yukos were once highly touted stocks. I am more comfortable with owning actual commodities, as there are many transparency issues with stocks. We have certainly learned that many corporate annual reports are works of fiction.


I agree wholeheartedly Micro. Stocks certificates are pieces of paper that can become worthless at any moment. A gold or silver coin will always be accepted in exchange for food, drink or a dry bed.
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Unread postby Zentric » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 02:32:13

Rationally, at least, a stock should be valued based on its earnings per share multiplied by the amount of time the company is expected to maintain this level of earnings. This approximation is admitedly crude, but stick with me.

If you anticipate the demand for oil is only going to increase in the near and long term, and no significant "windfall profit tax" will be levied upon the oil companies, then yes, you might do well to buy oil stocks.

On the other hand, if an economic crisis is to unfold soon, one that is so devastating that demand for oil falls off precipitously, then there stands to be a glut of oil on the market, causing oil shares to lose value.

In such an economic crisis, fiat bucks around the world might soon be recognized as a poor way to preserve wealth. But gold might not have this problem. Therefore, precious metals might weather all seasons better than oil stocks.
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Unread postby Leanan » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 06:26:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') gold or silver coin will always be accepted in exchange for food, drink a a dry bed.


I'm not so sure about that. Did you see the "Sarajevo" post in the Planning For the Future forum? It said in Sarajevo, when TSHTF, gold soon lost its value, but toilet paper was always a valuable trade good. And that people would trade much-needed meals for items like soap, deodorant, and cosmetics. Just so they could feel human again.
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Unread postby chris-h » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 11:19:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') gold or silver coin will always be accepted in exchange for food, drink a a dry bed.


I'm not so sure about that. Did you see the "Sarajevo" post in the Planning For the Future forum? It said in Sarajevo, when TSHTF, gold soon lost its value, but toilet paper was always a valuable trade good. And that people would trade much-needed meals for items like soap, deodorant, and cosmetics. Just so they could feel human again.


I agree.Lead in the form of bullets could be more valuable than silver.
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Unread postby Devilboy » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 11:52:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I')'m not so sure about that. Did you see the "Sarajevo" post in the Planning For the Future forum? It said in Sarajevo, when TSHTF, gold soon lost its value, but toilet paper was always a valuable trade good. And that people would trade much-needed meals for items like soap, deodorant, and cosmetics. Just so they could feel human again.


That's not at all what it says. And even if it did, it's bullshit. Gold is an internationally traded commodity with a well-known price at any given time. If you were stuck in Sarajevo at that time all you needed is some contact with the rest of the world and you'd be able to spend your gold. And even at that time an ounce of gold would have paid for a month's food.

That's why gold will always be valuble. There will ALWAYS be rich people in the world, and they will always need gold because it's a good store for value, it's infation-resistent and it's compact enough for large transactions. And when fiat currencies fail the rich always go back to using gold by default. Gold and silver has been with us for THOUSANDS of years (i.e. way before fossil fuels) and will be with us long after the fossil fuel era has ended.
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Unread postby teemu » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 17:08:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'N')ote there is a difference between oil (or gold) stocks and oil (or gold) futures. Most investors use extraction industry stocks as a surrogate for commodities. One can do this, but recall that Enron and Yukos were once highly touted stocks. I am more comfortable with owning actual commodities, as there are many transparency issues with stocks. We have certainly learned that many corporate annual reports are works of fiction.


And what is your opinion of oil company stocks and oil service company stocks? OSX -index of Philadelphia Stock Exchange has been rising during a last few years and at least offshore rig utilization is over 90%. It would sound logical to me that as reserves are depleting, you have to start producing from smaller deposits and you need much more drilling rigs and platforms. So the day-rates of platforms and rigs start to rise and service company profits increase.

The only thing that puzzles me of oil service stocks is that their P/E -ratios seem to be pretty high. For example Transocean (RIG) seems to be over 70.
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Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 12 Jun 2005, 19:56:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ationally, at least, a stock should be valued based on its earnings per share multiplied by the amount of time the company is expected to maintain this level of earnings. This approximation is admitedly crude, but stick with me.


well yes and no....although this works for conventional stocks it doesn't necessarily apply to companies involved in exploration. The big investment firms tend to use cash flow per share as a measure. Most of the companies in the US are trading at about $5-$6/share and Canadian oil and gas companies somewhat less.

In terms of do you invest in oil and gas companies or not....well if you had bought shares in Exxon 25 years ago and not sold until today you would probably be a happy man....same goes for Chevron and even a few of the independants like Anadarko. The real question you have to ask is what capability does a given company have of replacing its reserves or better yet expanding its reserve base which immediately transfers over to cash flow. As mentioned numerous times elsewhere on this site it is becoming increasingly difficult for oil companies to replace reserves...they are now exploring into deeper and deeper water and utilizing all the technology available to squeeze reserves out of fields previously thought to be played out. So bottom line is you have to latch onto the best oil and gas companies if you are in for the long term. Otherwise you have to get into the game of day trading or options in order to take advantage of the crazy volatility we are now seeing in these shares due in part to speculators.
Service companies are great when things are good but when there is a serious dip in activity by oil and gas companies they are the first hit....and usually pretty seriously. If they are big enough (eg. Schlumberger or Halliburton) they can weather the storm but if they are small its another story entirely.
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Unread postby Falconoffury » Mon 13 Jun 2005, 02:11:07

Something I haven't really seen mentioned on this site is the value of platinum and palladium, which are also valuable metals.
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Unread postby Leanan » Mon 13 Jun 2005, 11:23:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's not at all what it says.


Sure it does:

After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold's.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')And even if it did, it's bullshit. Gold is an internationally traded commodity with a well-known price at any given time.


It is now. It won't be if the global economy collapses.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you were stuck in Sarajevo at that time all you needed is some contact with the rest of the world and you'd be able to spend your gold.


Yeah, and all I need is to win the lottery, and I can quit my job.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')That's why gold will always be valuble. There will ALWAYS be rich people in the world, and they will always need gold because it's a good store for value, it's infation-resistent and it's compact enough for large transactions.


I think you're fooling yourself. Gold has no intrinsic value, aside from some high-tech uses, which aren't likely to be booming when TSHTF.

By all means, invest in gold...as part of a broader strategy. Putting it all in gold makes about as much sense as those people who had their entire nestegg invested in Enron.
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