[FatherOfTwo]

This thread is my rant about the definition, or lack thereof, of a suburb and the often talked about “economic impacts on suburbanites”.

The definition of "suburb" really isn't agreed upon.
Wikipedia says:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')uburbs are inhabited districts located either on the outer rim of a city or outside the official limits of a city (the term varies from country to country), or the outer elements of a conurbation. Further:
The presence of certain elements (whose definition varies amongst urbanists, but usually refers to some basic services and to the territorial continuity) identifies a suburb as a peripheral populated area with a certain autonomy, where the density of habitation is usually lower than in an inner city area, though state or municipal house building will often cause departures from that organic gradation. Suburbs have typically grown in areas with an abundance of flat land near a large urban zone, usually with minimal traditions of citizens clustering together for defence behind fortified city walls, and with transport systems which allow commuting into more densely populated areas with higher levels of commerce.

[Tyler_JC]

Many suburbs in America are dozens of miles from the core of the city. I'm 20 miles from Boston and there are people who live 40 miles from Boston that commute into the city.

So, no, I don't think the suburban sprawl problem is overblown.

[tivoli]

Another major issue about suburbs is how zoning is handled. For instance , zoning forces commericial and industrial development to occur away from the residential areas. Hence, I have to drive to get a pint of milk and drive to my job. Factor in auto-focused development ( curvilinear streets, six lane "local roads", lack of service alleys ) and you have a recipe for pedestrian russian roulette if you try to *gasp* walk anywhere...

[MD]

It's all about transport time.
Two miles is quite a distance if all you have is your feet.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'M')any suburbs in America are dozens of miles from the core of the city. I'm 20 miles from Boston and there are people who live 40 miles from Boston that commute into the city.

So, no, I don't think the suburban sprawl problem is overblown.

[Tyler_JC]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post.

I live 20 miles from Boston. The nearest place of major employment is Boston. People in my town drive 20 miles into Boston and 20 miles back from Boston every day. Total commute: 40 miles

There are people who live 40 miles away from Boston that still need to drive 40 miles into Boston and 40 miles back from Boston every day. Total commute: 80 miles

[jaws]

Suburbia is just a word that's commonly substituted for automobile sprawl, which is defined more as form than as location. Automobile sprawl is low-density, extreme separation of uses urban fabric that functions only with automobile transportation for individuals and trucking for goods. The construction of this urban pattern is extremely expensive in infrastructure and its maintenance is even more expensive in water and energy. This is why it is commonly believed that peak oil will be the end of suburbia.

Sprawl is not a suburbia-specific phenomenon. Nearly all of Los Angeles and Atlanta is sprawl, as is all of Las Vegas, Houston, Dallas and I would bet many other southern American cities. Sprawl metropolises without cores, sometimes called Edge Cities, will suffer even more so as they have no urban tradition to fall back on. These are non-places like Santa Clara (Silicon) Valley and Tyson's Corner.

An exception in sprawl is Miami Beach. While South Miami Beach is made up of low-rise buildings at lower density than North Miami Beach, North Beach is completely dependent on cars to move people in and out of its towering condominiums, while South Beach is a thriving pedestrian environment.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'S')uburbia is just a word that's commonly substituted for automobile sprawl, which is defined more as form than as location. Automobile sprawl is low-density, extreme separation of uses urban fabric that functions only with automobile transportation for individuals and trucking for goods. The construction of this urban pattern is extremely expensive in infrastructure and its maintenance is even more expensive in water and energy. This is why it is commonly believed that peak oil will be the end of suburbia.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')uburbia is just a word that's commonly substituted for automobile sprawl, which is defined more as form than as location. Automobile sprawl is low-density, extreme separation of uses urban fabric that functions only with automobile transportation for individuals and trucking for goods. The construction of this urban pattern is extremely expensive in infrastructure and its maintenance is even more expensive in water and energy. This is why it is commonly believed that peak oil will be the end of suburbia.

[jaws]

Exurbs are rural sprawl, while suburbs are urban sprawl. Exurbs are subdivisions and office/industrial parks showing up in completely rural settings without any adjacent city. Suburbs sprawl out of existing cities. In form they are exactly the same.

The typical rural setting consists of farms and classical villages with the occasional town. They are clear containers. Exurban sprawl dots that landscape with typical sprawl elements (the housing subdivision, the office park, the shopping supercenter) in a random pattern that reflects only land speculation without any thought to town planning or civics. Because everything ends up so far apart the automobile is the only way to get around.

I will disagree that suburbs have the pretense of living in an urban area. Suburbs were intended to be a rural imitation in an urban area, people originally moved there to have a slower paced, rural lifestyle. Of course that's no longer true, but those who live in suburbs still think that urbanity is equivalent to the black death.

e: for lots of pictures of some exurbs see http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18048

[0mar]

When I lived with my parents, it was absolutely impossible to go anywhere without a car. Grocery store, post office, etc etc were all 3-4 miles away. That's not really a problem for me to bike, however, the area I was in (Wheaton, IL) was extremely hostile to biking and walking. Many places didn't even have sidewalks.

It's not just work that people commute to, it's their entire lives, it revolves around the automobile. Unlike the city, where you can get most anywhere on foot, bike, bus or subway, the suburbs are utterly hostile to all but one form of transportation, the automobile (or motorcycle). If you take away the automobile from most suburban homes, they would utterly isolated and without any means to get anywhere.

[Tyler_JC]

Even if the suburbs had bike paths, it's impossible to transport children/food/letters/other stuff efficiently without cars in the suburbs. How is Wal-Mart going to bike a TV into its stores from China? How is corn supposed to travel from Iowa to Boston without using big diesel trucks?

You can't take cars out of the suburbs without causing some serious issues. If your suburb could handle not having cars, it's not a suburb in my mind.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', 'W')hen I lived with my parents, it was absolutely impossible to go anywhere without a car. Grocery store, post office, etc etc were all 3-4 miles away. That's not really a problem for me to bike, however, the area I was in (Wheaton, IL) was extremely hostile to biking and walking. Many places didn't even have sidewalks.

It's not just work that people commute to, it's their entire lives, it revolves around the automobile. Unlike the city, where you can get most anywhere on foot, bike, bus or subway, the suburbs are utterly hostile to all but one form of transportation, the automobile (or motorcycle). If you take away the automobile from most suburban homes, they would utterly isolated and without any means to get anywhere.

[ArimoDave]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')How is Wal-Mart going to bike a TV into its stores from China?

[Dan1195]

I am about 25 miles from boston. Fortunately I work in a nearby suburb and do not have to travel into the city. I concur with the previous comments regarding zoning. Most suburbs in this area are predominately zoned residential. Only ones not were old mill villages where industry occurred in the past. These towns do not want more compact development/business/industry as they dont want to lose there "rural character". In reality the enitre area is among the most densely populated in the county, go figure.

Unfortunately, it only encourages suburban sprawl as developers use the only means the towns give them to build (housing). Generally this involves cul-de-sac after cul-de-sac with large lots, or condo complexes. causing further congestion as people have to use their vehicles to go anywhere. Many cases there isnt a single store within walking distance. lack of sidewalks isnt the problem, it would take too long to go anywhere by foot. This is the crux of the problem. It basically forces more and more car use. by not connecting new housing with jobs.

This wont be fixed on the town level. Has to be done higher up. Vibrant town centers, meaning smaller shops, NOT malls which just makes it worse, along with denser development in those areas the can support it. Namely near mass transit, highways and town centers. Not 2 miles from the nearest major road. Suburbs generally lack mass transit, other than rail lines into the city. IMHO, this wont be fixed in any fashion that prevents the problems that occur when oil gets more expensive.

[Kingcoal]

As Peak Oil sets in, suburbia will adjust. We will see the return of the small neighborhood market. My Grandmother, who didn't drive, walked everyday to the local corner market to buy food for the day. It was a very simple market; meat, raw vegetables, simple canned goods. She cooked from scratch every day. Take a look at the modern Grocery store, it's about 80% processed food. Get rid of all the processed food and you're left with a pretty small store.

[Denny]

Ther are people who live 70 km out from Tokyo, but because of its advanced rail system, they can commute to work in under 50 minutes, safely and using minimal fuel. And, they are not packed like sardines anymore, things have changed way for the better.

If Japan can do it, why can't we?

I like the suburban existence, but I can also get by without a car. Its just a ten minute bike ride to the "GO" commuter rail station, and then I can be downtown (Toronto) in about 35 minutes. I have just completed going three weeks without using a car to get to work. I only use the car on the weekend for large shopping trips and going to church, as our suburban bus system is not up to par on Sundays, but its not bad the rest of the time. And, I walk to the village nearby most weekends to stroll, get a coffee, stop in at the library and the bank etc. And, for the best, as I do need the exercise!

It can be done, you just have to adjust.

Now, if only I could pry my kids from their cars!

[Wildwell]

Suburban development is land space driven. Japan is a tightly packed island with a mountainous interior and narrow valley network. Unlike the US, it just wasn’t practical to build roads to get people to work in the city and back, which is why Japan has the highest rail ridership in the world.

The UK, Holland and Germany in particular have tight suburban development and heavy mass transit commuting into and within metropolitan areas – again all down to space.

The US on the other hand has the luxury of space and therefore cheaper land and more space to build 16 lane highways, simple land economics and of course policy.

It’s all about economics of space, time and alighting and embarking passengers and of course cheap fuel to power space of fuel inefficient car commuting.

There’s no reason why the US can’t do it., but I get the impression it would take a culture change. Don’t forget the auto/oil lobby have a lot to do with decision making and think nothing about putting mis-information about, running powerful advertising campaigns and getting involved in decision making at local and national level.