[RepublicanfromEngland]

I'm a young person.

I posted last year stating I knew of this subect, and that former congressman Ron Paul.

Um, the posters here are correct that people often living in their own little dream world, and optimisim is everywhere especially amongst the young. Though since the bad economics a lot of young people have a different outlook of negativity. I do myself. I don't think American citizens will walk on the moon again as an example. Space flight has become very important in our time, more specifically satelites.

The events around us are what they are, and we all have to try and stop it. But for those of us that can, preparation for a different society is an option on the table.

[Newfie]

RepfromEng.

You are right to prepare. You have to prepare to succeed, even if it looks bleak. Wouldn't it be a bithch to give up all hope, only to have a unexpected opportunity drift past.

Ibon,

I kinda sorta get your drift. If I haven't already mentioned it, I recently read E O Wilson THE SOCIAL CONQUEST OF EARTH. I think you would find it interesting. It goes a ways down your path, but with a scientific explanation. Re: self sacrifice is a way of assuring the health of the collective at the loss of an individual. Think ants crossing a body of water, or a suicide bomber, or a Non-profit volunteer.

I do believe the collective is very powerful, as you indicate. Predicting how it will behave is neigh on impossible. AFAIK the collectives evolved to compete with adjacent collectives. Doing so is in our DNA. Social media is messing with the way that works in new and unpredictable ways. You no longer need to bw physically part of a tribe to be a part of the tribe. Also the tribe can grow in size while still retaining traits of a small group or visa versa. This is urecedented territory and it remains unknown on how that will be manipulated.

On the other hand, those most pessimistic among us, self included, fear that we have already crossed tipping points that make much of this argument moot. If we bust down to only a few tens of millions even, we will be looking at an entirely new kind of existence, with new rules. At that point there will not be much of a collective left. At least as we recognize it today.

BTW you are right, I am a "religious" or " spiritual" person, in the sense that I have thought about it a good bit. I am also ex-president of a local Ethical Humanist congregation.

http://www.aeu.org/

Cheers

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Its all totally reversible when we turn our backs on big government and multi national corporations in favor of much smaller constitutionally focused government and local/regional enterprise supported by a business friendly environment.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 't')here ultimately is no political solution to this. Even the decision on something like Keystone-XL is kind of missing the point. You wouldn't need a pipeline if the US didn't need the oil. It's like the war on drugs. The only way to tackle it is to tackle demand. For people to think that you can solve limits to growth through political means is kidding themselves.

[Ibon]

On the otherside of the bottleneck when the consequences have done their work, the collective may indeed embrace in a newborn spirituality the words of prophets from our past

“God has to nearly kill us sometimes, to teach us lessons.”
― John Muir

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone. Henry David Thoreau (Walden, 82)

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'P')ops, it would be a mistake to dismiss the real power that a belief in God bestows on a people.

[Newfie]

Well, for a well thought out atheist, if we throw off god, and as humanist realize that we are the ones making decisions, then we must also throw off the devil and embrass that part into ourselves and into our responsibility. In other words....."he" is "us".

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', ' ') In other words....."he" is "us".

[Newfie]

Ibon wrote $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o leader can step forward while we are all wiggling. He has to wait until the claustrophobia of denial makes it unbearable to hold any longer on to dead dreams.
We are the foot soldiers ready to rally when the time comes…..
Carry this awareness with you when watching events unfold. And look for the new enlightenment that will come forth. We are spiritual creatures and we will rally when called upon.

[SeaGypsy]

The 'New Leader' is Utopian idealism, not realistic IMO. Either another disaster dictatorship or a neo-Jesus martyrdom only recognizable as leadership in post facto are possible in our megalopolized world.
The need for such is effectively redundant also; given that there is so little left to say: "Go forth humbly and together on a wing and a prayer with your loved ones close by, seek peace, survival and sustainable lives. If worst comes to worst may death bring you solace." Although this is more or less all there is left to say, who is listening and what will the world be like by then?

[Newfie]

Good summary.

[Ibon]

You guys are desribing 100% the leaders who will in vane try to preserve the status quo and I share your fear about these early encarnations of "leaders". But these are not leaders. These are pacifiers. And they can be dangerous populists.

Consider the dust bowl in the 30's, folks squeezed like prunes to the last drops of their resilience. When I talk of a revitalized spirit that springs from consequences I am not referring to consequences that are like annoying mosquitoes. I am referring to consequences that take us to the edge of collapse and desperation that you can see on the faces of these folks in 1938 in western Kansas.

While the status quo holds on during decline we will see the leaders you fear. But once we hit spiritual pay dirt think of what spiritual hunger and desperation will remain of the shattered consumer paradigm. Real fundamental change can only rise from a shattered paradigm.

The challenge for the humanist will be to help minimize suffering on one hand while welcoming it on the other. We have left ourselves no option.

It might seem like I am overly optimistic in my prognosis.

This will not be a walk in the park.

[SeaGypsy]

What I don't get with this prognosis is:

How can a 'True Leader' emerge post collapse, post population bottleneck, post enviro- disaster etc?
Who would give a hoot? What would make such a person relevant? (Say more relevant than the historical Jesus or Mohammad or Gautama or Theresa?)

So much of the ways we have become accustomed to thinking depend utterly on the technology of mass communication. The government is totally irrelevant to people disconnected from these mass systems. They have their own 'Leaders' or systems of leadership.

As these mass systems fail, so will mass systems of government. We will have leaders, but they will not be the media creation we call such now, but people we know directly and who know us.

Meanwhile the totalitarian wish will strive onwards in it's various guises and try to sucker us all into slavery to the death in it's support. In the end though these systems must fail and the most resilient, redundant systems recur. That is if any humans are left to require leadership.

[Pops]

As Ibon pointed out earlier, leaders are a product of their time, they give a voice to the prevailing whim of the masses. True leaders (not despots, tyrants or representatives of the landlord) inhabit a certain time and only if what they have to say resonates with a significant fraction of the population does their influence expand.

Of course mere populism or demagoguery doesn't make a transformational leader, if it did we would all be Gandhis. So again, look at what Carter had to say and how his idea of conservation and collectivism was embraced, or not, to understand that true leaders are more of a focusing lens for the greater conscious. For a minute there post-peak in the US we were genuinely concerned about the future and willing to listen to a transformative message. But once technology (Alaska Pipe) "saved" us from the immediate threat we forgot about the future and returned to the extractive economy.

Point is there needs to be a desire for transformation before a transformational leader can appear. As AR often says, as long as there are SNAP cards available, we in the rich world probably won't feel much of a desire for a leader that calls for dramatic changes to the status quo. It takes an existential threat to get people off the couch.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Point is there needs to be a desire for transformation before a transformational leader can appear. As AR often says, as long as there are SNAP cards available, we in the rich world probably won't feel much of a desire for a leader that calls for dramatic changes to the status quo. It takes an existential threat to get people off the couch.

[Rod_Cloutier]

This weekend a retired Army captain compared Obama to Hitler:

http://www.infowars.com/retired-army-ca ... an-people/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '�')��It is with gravest concern that I write to you today concerning the recent appropriation of weapons by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that can only be understood as a bold threat of war by that agency, and the Obama administration, against the citizens of the United States of America,” the decorated retired Army Captain’s letter begins.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Repent', 'T')his weekend a retired Army captain compared Obama to Hitler:

http://www.infowars.com/retired-army-ca ... an-people/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '�')��It is with gravest concern that I write to you today concerning the recent appropriation of weapons by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that can only be understood as a bold threat of war by that agency, and the Obama administration, against the citizens of the United States of America,” the decorated retired Army Captain’s letter begins.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RepublicanfromEngland', 'I')'m a young person.

I posted last year stating I knew of this subect, and that former congressman Ron Paul.

[PrestonSturges]

And here's a Beck-tard yearning for the charismatic leader who will give him permission to go on a killing spree. Because nothing says "freedom" like killing everyone that disagrees with you.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Amen brother!!! I am a retired and disabled USAF veteran and I swore to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign AND domestic! The left are enemies of the Constitution! I, and you it appears, am ready to defend the Constitution with my own blood against the leftist garbage like Kelly, Obambi, Reid, and the rest of the filth! There are millions of us here in the U.S. and hundreds of millions from around the world (foreigners dreaming of real freedom) willing to fight! All we need is a call to arms and I am out the door! Who is willing to make that call? Must be a citizen in a position to reach all of America! Any in Congress? The Joint Chiefs (where are these clowns anyway)? A strong state Governor? A regular patriot like myself can only prepare locally! We need someone who commands a bully pulpit to reach out! Do any have the balls to stand tall?

[Ibon]

Call it just a device but you can anchor yourself to some distant point where humanity organizes itself living within carrying capacity. The disruptive events, be they environmental, political or economic will certainly twist and turn or kill you between now and then, but in the improbable event we do arrive at that ripe moment when the collective soup will embrace a new paradigm, and a leader(s) will gather and consolidate and distill this into a new social/spiritual/political agenda, is it not worth while? If it isn’t what more constructive human response to adapting to living in the age of the consequences of overshoot can there be?

A noble vision does not require a high probability of success, anything above the futile threshold makes it worthy, for what alternative lies before us? The self-fulfilling prophecy of collective cynicism is not a vision to move our society toward self-preservation.

And yes, this noble vision may never build any momentum at all, and it may come to naught., and once again as history has shown before we may decline into resource wars and into darkness like the middle ages. But even so if any of these noble sentiments survive the chaos and are archived they can represent to some future civilization evidence that not all was ignorance. They may even be stronger catalysts if such martyred.
Another thought perhaps worth considering. The vast majority of humanity in ignorance or denial may not all represent a stubborn arrogance to preserve the status quo and BAU. Perhaps the awareness of passing through the bottleneck is just too bleak and disheartening for mothers and fathers of children, for school teachers, for priests and some politicians. At some point the collective cynicism and consequences together becomes unbearable, and yes, this hopelessness will be exploited by some of the most evil motives as false prophets call for war (as the passage presented by PrestonSturgess)

So we do have to move beyond the collective cynicism, especially the fraternity of those of us who have seen this coming. If we were visionaries 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, why not still be and reach beyond the consequences and already represent an anchor, a barnacle, a germinating seed, in that collective soup that may or may not come to fruition this time round.