[Ibon]

We analyze the tangible physical data and sift through the ramifications with varied predictions. What about the intangibles? For those of us several decades alive with memories back 40 years or more are there echoes from the past that at times remind us of how we perceived ourselves, our species, our prospects, our will to adapt and rise above the warnings of the tangible dangers already understood back then.

I can remember a time when I believed we would through collective will make the intelligent decisions a few minutes before midnight to avoid what to me back then seemed obvious collective suicide.

Today I am a member of the current cynical collective, short sighted like mice, myopic in focussing on how to best cope on a ship that is no longer guided by rational self preservation.

But I do remember a different more noble sentiment that is an intangible cultural meme that we have lost, replaced by a more cynical perspective, one that will surely accuse these very musings of being those of a delusional nature.

But I do protest and feel certain that these noble sentiments, however scoffed, are not yet totally extinguished. For they touch on the deepest of human spiritual sentiments, and will one day rise from the ashes.

[Plantagenet]

Most cynics are really crushed romantics: they've been hurt, they're sensitive, and their cynicism is a shell that's protecting this tiny, dear part in them that's still alive.

--Jeff Bridges

[Rod_Cloutier]

I don't know; but things seem vastly different when I look back on my childhood in the 1970's. The older generation, although more bigoted, religious, and strict, they had a maturity that people today no longer have.

In my teen years in the 80's; there was a Twisted sister song called 'Rock and roll will never die'. However it did die; nothing remarkable has come out since at least 1995, going on two decades now. Rap, hip-hop, new age; I don't like them, never have, never will.

In the 1990's I was starting out on a career in the trucking industry; I got married, started a family, got the two kids and the dog, bought my first car then a house; everything looking up. Lost my job at the end of 2008, and went through a bankrupcy in 2009. Economically its never been the same for me since, my expectations changed.

In this last decade I became aware of impending peak oil, catastrophic climate change, ecological collapse, ect... So I've adjusted my expectations down even further. Three weeks ago I saw this lecture on youtube that is predicting global human extinction by 2050. (I've been depressed for weeks since seeing it). Intangible change is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ina16XSJQvM

The news sprials out of any sense of coherence, and the 'reality' I believed in growing up has been shattered. Stuff so bizzarre, but true; you just can't make this stuff up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qliVpGEk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrUVLpFa ... r_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5 ... r_embedded

Looking forward to the next, 10, 20, 30 years of life cautiously. Who really knows what will happen? Hope only for the afterlife:

(Excellent 10 part series) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgF_iwUNqFU

[Pops]

I was a teen from '67-'77, so that's race riots, assassinations and Tet on one end and Carter's peak oil speech on the other:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he energy crisis has not yet overwhelmed us, but it will if we do not act quickly.
It is a problem we will not solve in the next few years, and it is likely to get progressively worse through the rest of this century.

[PrestonSturges]

When JFK, RFK, and MLK were assassinated in short order, it became clear that nobody was untouchable if they rocked the status quo. I guess we always knew that, but sort of felt that it would not happen on television. Then Vietnam impressed on us that even pointlessness wars dragged on forever and that our side committed massacres. And Kent State showed that even casual protest could be get you killed, and that there were people in the US who cheered the killers. The Oil Crisis showed our lifestyle of perpetual growth and happy motoring was an illusion. Reagan was just the same shit sandwich in a new wrapper as the US supported our our enemies and trained death squads that killed nuns. The idea that Ruby Ridge was a wake-up call for the right wing survivalists is rather amusing since they probably cheered Kent State, and they about had a stroke because Clinton was the president who finally got caught fooling around. Then Bush let New Orleans drown while the cops (now in prison) went on a killing spree and tried to claim people were shooting at Coast Guard helicopters. And then Dubya lied us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands. And the financial system collapsed largely because of fraud while wingnuts try to blame lazy negros. Fast forward to today where the GOP's game plan is to drive the country into a Depression, because hey, it worked for the National Socialists. And the ammo shelves at Wal-Mart are stripped bare because the goobers literally believe we are about to have race war. And every week you can watch a new video of the cops beating to death someone with Downs Syndrome or diabetes.

[PrestonSturges]

BTW - An "intangible" change would not be "perceptible."

[kuidaskassikaeb]

The funny thing for me is that kids today seem much more together than we were. I think the early seventies were the much worse for drugs sex and other fun stuff. We were when society hit bottom. And even when you think about the possible destruction of civilization: nuclear war was never more than 30 minutes away. Crime was way worse and so were a lot of types of pollution.

But for the society things seem so much worse now. Things like resource depletion and global warming don't seem avoidable just something to endure.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'B')TW - An "intangible" change would not be "perceptible."

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
It would be comforting to imagine we could sacrifice today for tomorrow, or mine for ours but it would only be imagining.

[Cloud9]

Necessity is the mother of invention. Abundance is the father of complacency.
Change will not happen until it is forced upon us. The slow bleed we are experiencing can go on for a long time. Look how long it took for Detroit to abandon its dreams of recovery. Dreams of a new age persisted while their heavy industry was being sold for scrap and a scavenger culture was pillaging their infrastructure. Yet, the cargo cult continued with new strip malls being put up and demands being made for more infrastructure expansion.

Even now, we hear that this or that invention will return us to the good old days of cheap abundant energy. We are told that fracking will save us and that a new age of natural gas is upon us. We are assured that green shoots are everywhere while real incomes continue to go down. No one sits down and does the math on what it would take to scale up these projects to power the country to levels we were enjoying in 2005.

We are in the age of contraction. We have been since the seventies. Dot com bubbles and housing bubbles are not examples of sustainable organic growth. They are a product of malinvestment brought on by fiat money expansion. The last big bubble being blown is the exponential growth of central governments worldwide. That bubble will burst as well. When it does, the pain and suffering on the local level will reach the breaking point. When that happens, we will find local solutions to our problems.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he cynicism we see today is an intangible that acts as a self fulfilling prophecy of hopelessness.

[Cloud9]

Pops, it would be a mistake to dismiss the real power that a belief in God bestows on a people. For me at least, God is the uncaused cause. I suspect the rest we purport to know about him is the result of our own imaginings. It is interesting to me how mathematicians I know tend to embrace the concept of a grand architect, while my friends who are biologists see no grand design. From my experience, to expect God to intervene in our own behalf is the epitome of hubris. Having said that, miracles do happen but in the end everybody dies. Still, the benefits of a common belief system should not be dismissed. If you look at the success of the Jews or the Mormons it is clear that a belief in God gave them a survival advantage over other groups. Theocracies were after all the first form of government.

When I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I find myself whispering a small prayer. That prayer tends to calm my nerves. That is a survival advantage that should not be negated.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')I think cynicism is the path forward through resource constraints.

In the ancient meaning, cynicism is distrust of convention and religion, rejection of the status quo and living a simple and moral life. Only in modern times have authoritarians in religion and greater society made the meaning negative by convincing the gullible that individuals are inherently immoral with no ability to distinguish right from wrong without the guidance of a human/god intermediary ...
who by the way, needs you to support them.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', ' ')Still, the benefits of a common belief system should not be dismissed. If you look at the success of the Jews or the Mormons it is clear that a belief in God gave them a survival advantage over other groups. Theocracies were after all the first form of government. When I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I find myself whispering a small prayer. That prayer tends to calm my nerves. That is a survival advantage that should not be negated.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'P')ops, it would be a mistake to dismiss the real power that a belief in God bestows on a people.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'Y')ou have to be cautious when you assume that a major inflection point of our culture is going to happen coincidentally during your own lifetime. But I do suspect that we are approaching on a global scale a very monumental inflection point that has the potential to revolutionize these institutional pillars for reasons stated by Heinberg. Probably drawn out beyond our lifetimes like Cloud mentioned. If you want to revolutionize our economic system, our form of government, our religious institutions, and you want to find a common denominator that will address all at once, then my friends, the consequences of overshoot do offer up the single greatest catalyst and driver going forward.

[Newfie]

Personally I don't think there is really all that much to it.

Humans, collectively, are not all that smart. Individually the experience is different, and there can be some really neat thoughts going on. But collectively, naw.

If you were an alien biologist humanity would be described how?

We are an eusocial mammal, eusocial being a critter that lives in large collectives, and competes gainst other collectives for biological advantage. Thus we have two personas, as a individual, and as a member of the collective. ALL of our highly praised human traits such as valor and self sacrifice are valued because they raise the collective over the individual. Thus we can be described pretty completely.

I don't see a lot of change in the rules, there are changes in the details, the swirls and eddies of current, but the river still runs to the sea.

Sorry if this is obtuse.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'P')ersonally I don't think there is really all that much to it.

We are an eusocial mammal, eusocial being a critter that lives in large collectives, and competes gainst other collectives for biological advantage. Thus we have two personas, as a individual, and as a member of the collective.Thus we can be described pretty completely.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')
As simple as your description may be this collective is a powerful force like the schooling of fish and although this maybe innately human it is a field little understood and deserving of much more study as its force rivals the impact that an individual can have in his or her journey of self actualization.

To assume we are genetically incapable of acting collectively toward self preservation is paradoxically a point of view that comes from an intangible collective mind set.....that currently is deeply cynical.