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Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby basil_hayden » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 15:21:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'b')asil_hayden just showed what a moron he is..........

Testing included 11 million customer equivalent miles, with stronger durability testing than any previous Chrysler engine. The 5.7-liter HEMI's 7 year/70,000-mile powertrain warranty is backed by an impressive 11 million customer equivalent miles (CEMs) of testing, including more than 200,000 CEMs of durability testing for the average consumer - more than any other Chrysler Group engine. The battery of reliability tests closely represents real-world driving conditions, in some cases exposing the engine to more severe abuses than drivers can dish out. For example, during a 260-hour period, the 5.7-liter HEMI was repeatedly heated to 240°F and then slammed with coolant that was -25°F.
"The engine was exposed to some of the harshest testing conditions and abuses imaginable," said Donald Dees, Vice President of Quality for the Chrysler Group (and formerly of Toyota, so you know that means something).


Now they have a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Take your jap crap and stick it where the sun don't shine.... :)


Honda's are hemis too, anything with a hemispherical head allowing for larger valves is a hemi, dopey.

Everyone knows, including you, that a Honda Fit will be on the road longer than whatever American-built piece of shit you bought, sucker.

I will continue driving when I see your broken down Chrysler on the side of the road. Dodge's NEED a 100,000 mile powertrain warrranty or no one will buy them. (It's like you have to explain everything to the old peaople these days.)
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 16:28:10

Ha, Honda Fit...

By the time mine hit's 100,000 miles I'm trading her in for the latest tech. You will be driving around that old POS still. lsol
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby basil_hayden » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 17:00:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')a, Honda Fit...

By the time mine hit's 100,000 miles I'm trading her in for the latest tech. You will be driving around that old POS still. lsol


Fit's already got 125K on it in 5 years. Runs like new. CRV's got 260K, motor still purrs.
Do you know what the only thing worse than a Dodge is? A Dodge built by Fiat. Most of us learned that in the 1960s. Guess you were even more out of it back then.

And if the Fit lasts 15 years as my CRV has, that's an annual cost of $1100 per year, while you'll be spending at least $5000 per year, not including fuel, insurance and taxes. That's $16K my way and $75K your way for 15 years of vehicles.

See, you baby boomers just don't get it. Spend, spend, spend on junk then ask for a "cost of living" increase in your monthly social security check. Those days are over, have fun walking or waiting for Nbiru or whatever.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 17:29:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven at $4 per gallon, compare that to a $16k compact that gets 35MPG:


Compare that to a luxury sedan with close to 300 hp that get's 31 mpg. Your $16 compact is a POS. :lol:


All that does is skew the numbers even worse. My whole point was the economics of the thing - of course a lot of people would like to have a luxury sedan for the same MPG as an econobox. A lot of people can't afford them, however, so even though the spread has really gotten tight on luxury cars vs. economical cars, the price spread is still pretty hefty.

That said, there's nothing inherent about a small car that makes it non-luxury. It's just what the maker is willing to put in it for the price point.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 17:49:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')a, Honda Fit...

By the time mine hit's 100,000 miles I'm trading her in for the latest tech. You will be driving around that old POS still. lsol


Fit's already got 125K on it in 5 years. Runs like new. CRV's got 260K, motor still purrs.
Do you know what the only thing worse than a Dodge is? A Dodge built by Fiat. Most of us learned that in the 1960s. Guess you were even more out of it back then.

And if the Fit lasts 15 years as my CRV has, that's an annual cost of $1100 per year, while you'll be spending at least $5000 per year, not including fuel, insurance and taxes. That's $16K my way and $75K your way for 15 years of vehicles.

See, you baby boomers just don't get it. Spend, spend, spend on junk then ask for a "cost of living" increase in your monthly social security check. Those days are over, have fun walking or waiting for Nbiru or whatever.


The new Pentastar is going to be used by Mercedes and Maserati.

Have fun with yer 115 hp sled. :P


CRV? Those are the most uncomfortable boxes I've ever been in, Do they still have that cassette deck in it (2007 did). :lol:
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 10 Dec 2012, 18:28:47

Relying on built in entertainment electronics is just so... archaic.

Not to say its wrong to like cars and built in e-gadgets, I just could never stand to go back to doing it that way.

I also don't quite get this obsession with horsepower, my little 150hp, ~20yr old pickup did 90mph smooth and fine just a couple weeks ago on a long work trip. Not sure how much faster I'd want to go really. It'll also drag a boat, or a half ton of rock&junk without complaint.

And fun???? We are talking moving vehicle with a motor in it, right?; that's like the definition of UN-fun.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 11 Dec 2012, 08:56:47

I also don't quite get this obsession with horsepower

I'm a 60's kid........ Like those gray heads driving Vette's.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby jdmartin » Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:40:09

I can sympathize...I grew up digging those muscle cars as well. I rebuilt several old Mustangs including a 67 convertible that I literally put back together from boxes, completely disassembled. That said, today's cars are light years ahead of even the best cars of yesterday, except in looks. My new Kia econobox is light years ahead of my father's 64 luxury T-bird.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 11 Dec 2012, 12:06:51

Even the stuff from around the year 2000 is getting really dated compaired to what's out today.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 19 Jan 2013, 23:35:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'T')here's really no mass market for hyper-efficient cars in the United States, no matter how bad some people might want them. A mass-marketed vehicle that's getting 75MPG or better and has a range of at least a couple of hundred miles is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $50k.


WHY would it cost at least $50k? Seriously, why? All that is needed is for a mass produced platform that is rear wheel drive and sturdy to be used as a basis. Do a little wind tunnel work without giving the stylists any input until a basic, aerodynamic shape is achieved to meet the car's function. THEN let the stylists have at it, not the other way around. Over a production run of 5 figures or more, per car, extensive wind tunnel testing to yield a fleshed out car with a sub 0.2 drag coefficient would cost much less than $100 per car sold. Use an inexpensive manual transmission, say, some nice beefy parts out of a cheap entry-level truck, a RWD platform with similar truck parts, and keep the car extremely simple and no-frills to keep the costs as low as possible.

I can't think of any reason it should cost more than an ordinary, cheap entry level car like a Nissan Versa or Hyundai Accent. Conventional materials could be used to build the car and still keep it very light, well under 2,000 lbs. Look at the Scion IQ, for instance, at 1,896 lbs. The problem with the Scion is that the layout is the wrong type for competition purposes(front wheel drive instead of the desirable rear wheel drive) and its proportions and aerodynamics are not conducive to either performance or fuel economy, much like the Smart Car, hindering its true potential greatly. People in the U.S. don't often buy a Smart or a Scion IQ because it looks good(because it doesn't, at least to most Americans), they buy them because they are easy to park, simple, maneuverable, safe, cheap, have a lot of usable storage space, and are relatively fuel efficient.

A low drag shape with plenty of storage space along with having good downforce at highspeeds could easily be put together. Look at the Lotus Europa from the 1960s and 70s, for example, but imagine it with a front engined, rear drive layout, and with a hatchback configuration with an appearance not unlike some weird mix of a Triumph GT6, Honda CRX, or Smart Roadster in overall shape. Its practicality, even if only a 2 seater, would be significant, along with the potential for a slightly elongated variant of the chassis to be turned into a fuel-efficient four-seater.

There is such a huge pent-up demand for a light, fast vehicle with rear wheel drive that overweight vehicles initially ill-suited for racing are still selling like mad in the U.S. because the enthusiasts have little other choice than to use a kit, re-engineer an old car to meet their purposes, or build their own. Many "supercars" initially weigh in at close to 4,000 lbs, only to have any and all resale value ruined by turning it into a 2,500 lb race car by gutting out all of its luxuries, and this happens over, and over, and over again. In fact, there are people willing to pay a few ten thousand extra dollars for having that "privilege" right from the factory instead of having to gut it themselves.

A fuel-efficient sports car platform, designed to later accommodate a 4-door subcompact layout, could literally save Detroit, as musclecar performance can be provided with very little horsepower, and a hatchback variant could be made to seat 4 people, easily showing up inferior and currently existing front wheel drive imports with regard to fuel economy and fun factor. People are clamoring on autotrader sites for old Miatas, VW-based kit cars, lightweight RWD or 4WD pickups(Subaru Brat, Dodge Rampage, Chevy Luv, Mitsubishi Mighty Max), and other light, RWD/4WD vehicles, because there just aren't any vehicles like that on the new car market at all, let alone at an affordable price. These kinds of cars always command a huge premium if in good shape, even though they are 2nd, 3rd, or 10th hand sales.

If a hypothetical new Miata competitor lacked power anything, was built to 3/4 scale, weighed only 1800 lbs, had its body designed with function in mind instead of looks, maybe only had basic creature comforts such as air conditioning, a minimalist interior, cost under $20,000 due to use of conventional materials and much less of them than an ordinary car, and accelerated like crazy due to its light weight in spite of being an "underpowered" 4-cylinder with only around 150 horsepower, a *lot* of people would buy that, and it would lend itself well to increased fuel economy over the norm, with its platform and a variant of its body style usable on other vehicles to keep costs down.

Enthusiasts are spending far more money to put kits together because of a lack of cars like this on the market. People will pay far more money for overweight, overpowered cars that deliver the desired performance after being gutted of all of their luxuries, because the enthusiasts are seeking that kind of performance, damned be anything else, but there aren't any cheap alternatives available.

Could you imagine if they had a choice in the marketplace that was cheap by virtue of the product using so little parts and resources relative to everything else on the lot being fully loaded? Most new cars are expensive precisely because they come from the factory fully loaded with everything. The consumer doesn't want all of those features by default; it's just that the car companies are appealing to the lowest common denominator to boost prices for the pleasure of the dealerships, and during the late 2000s, manufacturers like Kia and Hyundai were obliterating the U.S. industry because they had cheap, lightweight, fuel-efficient, relatively low-frills, and reliable cars available. The sales figures don't lie.

Less is more.

Now imagine if such a car as I have described was built to not only appease the serious performance enthusiasts(people who begrudgingly buy Corvettes, Ferraris, Porsches, and Lamborghinis only to spend laborious hours and cash to gut them for racing), but at the same time, a driver who wants a light-weight, simple, fuel efficient daily runabout for commuting(people who buy a Smart Car, a Hyundai Accent, a Scion xA or IQ, Chevrolet Aveo, or a Toyota Yaris), within the exact same platform?

You wouldn't be able to keep people away. Both markets would have advantages in this new vehicle over the current competition within their isolated markets. It would fuse the two.

The problem is, it will not only cannibalize the sales of high-margin, heavy, overpowered, overpriced "halo" cars like the Corvettes and Porsche 911s, due to performing the same desired function to an enthusiast for much cheaper, it would also cannibalize the sales of existing econoboxes on the market since it would perform the function of being inexpensive to operate and easy to repair much better than the front wheel drive hum-drum barn-door aerodynamics econocrap available today that dealerships pad way too much margin into, and the major players within the auto industry aren't fond of a lower-profit margin item cannibalizing all of their high-margin cash cows.

RWD front-engined cars are easy to work on. No CV axels to worry about, no timing belts, and the front end can be built to hinge in the opposite direction to allow easy access to and repair of anything within the engine bay. Best of all, this kind of layout makes a monocoque body and rollcage structure cheap to implement, maximizing safety during a collision while keeping the cost down to do it.

The only real disadvantage with regard to safety is that you have to know how to drive it; RWD cars capable of accelerating fast do not reward the stupid, even the less powerful ones like the Caterham 7 kit cars.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby SamInNebraska » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 01:50:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')And fun???? We are talking moving vehicle with a motor in it, right?; that's like the definition of UN-fun.


Are you KIDDING?!?!?!?!


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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby Beery1 » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 08:04:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'S')omehow I could not accept bottom or even medium shelf female (as measured by physical attractiveness) as my wife.

Physical beauty and good health tend to go in couple.


Wow! You sound like a real winner of a guy, and not at all shallow. You may have got a 'top shelf' wife (way to objectify your wife by the way), but are you sure she didn't settle for less?

As for the ridiculous notion that good looks and good health go together, my granddad lived to be 102, and he had a face that would stop a clock. My great grandmother was a real beauty and she died at age 56. Physical beauty, which is a subjective trait and varies based on cultural mores and personal preference, has nothing whatsoever to do with good health.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 09:18:19

Image
The 2014 or 2015 Chrysler 200 might have an increased-power Chrysler 2.4 (200 hp); and it is likely to have the 3.2 or 3.6 liter V6. The 1.4 liter Fiat engine has reportedly been axed, at least for American markets. The 200 will have the nine-speed ZF automatic, and is reportedly going to achieve 38 mpg.



http://www.allpar.com/model/upcoming.html


Nice........ :)
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby basil_hayden » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 09:59:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '[')img]http://i49.tinypic.com/2hhgkco.png[/img]
The 2014 or 2015 Chrysler 200 might have an increased-power Chrysler 2.4 (200 hp); and it is likely to have the 3.2 or 3.6 liter V6. The 1.4 liter Fiat engine has reportedly been axed, at least for American markets. The 200 will have the nine-speed ZF automatic, and is reportedly going to achieve 38 mpg.



http://www.allpar.com/model/upcoming.html


Nice........ :)


I'll just assume that at your age, you're ready to trade your non-working winkie for horsepower. :wink:

I think I'm going to trade my '98 CRV with 265,000 miles on it for a 2013 Subaru Forester.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 10:05:03

Horsepower? 200 hp in a 3,600 lb car is LOW............ I'm lookin' @ 300 in the same size car right now (29 mpg).
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sun 20 Jan 2013, 13:11:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '
')The 2014 or 2015 Chrysler 200 might have an increased-power Chrysler 2.4 (200 hp); and it is likely to have the 3.2 or 3.6 liter V6. The 1.4 liter Fiat engine has reportedly been axed, at least for American markets. The 200 will have the nine-speed ZF automatic, and is reportedly going to achieve 38 mpg.



http://www.allpar.com/model/upcoming.html


Nice........ :)


9-speed automatic? That translates to "too many parts to break, too many things to go wrong, too much money to be worth fixing."

I can guarantee you that my current driver, a more than 25 year old turbodiesel which has already been around the world more than 10 times in terms of mileage, will still be on the road long after this thing is sitting in a junkyard.

My other turbodiesel, the same exact make and model of car as my current driver, was purchased for $1,200, with over 200k miles on a broken odometer at the time of purchase, which had an interior that had looked like it had seen too many hookers in its lifetime, where the AC, windows, heated seats, and all of the luxury crap I didn't care about didn't even work, took 3 straight years of constant, unyielding abuse under my ownership. But, my abuse of the car isn't what killed it. During my ownership, it had well over 100 hours at triple digit speeds, had seen "neutral drops" performed to execute a burnout to do donuts in the middle of intersections and parking lots at 2AM hundreds of times, had even survived a blown thermostat gasket at 120 mph which caused its coolant to spray everywhere(I shut down the engine before it overheated and had to have it towed, and fixed the problem the same week), all on its original engine, chassis, UV joints(even though the boots were torn by my abuse), and wheel bearings. That car was a rusting hunk of shit when I purchased it, and met its function to perfection; it was both point A to B transportation for distances where the bicycle was ill-suited, and it met the desire of a weekend toy for driving around on the back-roads during the weekend, and did so for three years with minimal expense. It's most glaring downside was that it is too big and overweight, but I was more concerned about having A to B long distance transport, than I was having a toy. It's acceleration was okay, 0-60 mph in around 11-12 seconds, with highway passing performance capable of embarrassing cars that did 0-60 mph in 8 seconds.

It initially got 28 mpg at 70 mph. It later got 32 mpg at 70 mph after a little rudimentary engine work and an upgrade to some LRR tires, the same efficiency as my other, currently running one does today.

Do you know why I don't drive the old one anymore? Electrical problems! The wiring harness finally gave up due to corrosion on the terminals! It did sit in an environment with salty air with these connections exposed to the elements, after all. It'll still start, if I go through the laborious and difficult process of manually priming the fuel pump, heating the glowplugs and energizing the starter solenoid.

The other turbodiesel that I had bought last year was in much nicer shape, and I don't abuse it in the least. It is going to last a very long time. Mercedes is never going to build a car like that ever again, for obvious reasons. Detroit never has built a car like that, for obvious reasons.

Looking forward, what can better aerodynamics and reduced weight yield for that kind of engine? The engine is going to go into a modified early 90s 4WD Toyota truck chassis at a later date, with a custom narrow open-wheel streamliner body on it(built for off-road capability), injector pump sent off to Myna to have larger threads inserted along with a rebuild(giving around 400 horsepower and 600 lb-ft of torque instead of the stock 149 horsepower 209 lb-ft of torque), and twin 40 gallon fuel tanks(or more, whatever can be made to fit). I do need to learn how to do my own fiberglass body work and have sufficient work space before I attempt it, but I have most of the other skills necessary from working on the EV. I would love having a vehicle theoretically capable of doing 200 mph for 8+ hours straight on a full tank of fuel. Such a car would exceed 60 mpg at 70 mph on a smooth road surface without any problem whatsoever, weigh well under 2,500 lbs fully loaded with fuel, be capable of running on a wide variety of fuels(diesel, kerosene, biodiesel, WVO, propane, ect to suit a post peak environment), able to go offroad, be 100% impervious to EMP devices, and its 0-60 time would be on par with $100,000 "supercars." Not even an MQ9 Reaper drone with a 1200 mile range outfitted with cameras would be able to keep up with such a thing for the long haul, let alone Barney Fife.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')orsepower? 200 hp in a 3,600 lb car is LOW............ I'm lookin' @ 300 in the same size car right now (29 mpg).


I'd rather have 150 horsepower in an 1,800 pound car myself. It ends up performing drastically better by all measures. Driving around a fat pig that can't get out of its own way is nowhere near as fun as driving something nimble; I've done it with that stinky old turbodiesel! I also know what it is like to drive a gutted Miata tuned to 250 horsepower, and there just isn't any substitute; not even a Corvette left intact will fill its role.

That being said, the attached image contains my current baby, the electric GT6.

Finished with the battery pack loaded in, she will weigh in at under 2,200 lbs, do 0-60 mph in under 7 seconds, and get well over 200 miles range at 60+ mph. I have so far had her tested to about 30 mph(speedometer not hooked up, so was an educated guess), and on a 48V pack of old golf cart batteries ready for the scrap heap. I could have bought a new car for far more money, and ended up with something vastly inferior with regard to the function it is intended for. The battery is about all that is left to buy for it(2/3 of the entire car's cost!), other than some paint, and a windshield. Just need to hook the lights, signals, and gauges up, put in a new windshield, and drop in the battery pack, and she's ready. I'm currently planning on a 30 kWh CALB pack and currently can afford that.

I will work on it again sometime later this year. Maybe even get it legal. Take THAT, overpriced, inferior Nissan Leaf.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 21 Jan 2013, 19:55:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')100k miles @ 75mpg = 1,333 gallons x $4 = $5,333 + $50k = $55,333
100k miles @ 35mpg = 2,857 gallons x $4 = $11, 429 + $16k = $27,429

Gasoline just doesn't cost enough to make the numbers work out. You'd have to drive over half a million miles in the vehicle before you broke even. Now it would come a lot closer in Europe, but Europeans don't drive anywhere near as much as Americans, so it would still take them forever to recapture their outlay.

Yes, if you pick those extremes, the numbers most definitely do NOT work out. However, hybrids are becoming more efficient and more available and the cost differential is coming down sharply.

Last time I checked, my current best candidate to replace my reliable 2003 Japanese midsized sedan is the 2012 or later Toyota Hybrid Camry.

The base LE model costs around $23000. EPA rated at 25 city / 35 highway.
The Hybrid LE model ONLY costs about $3500 more. EPA rated at 43 city / 39 highway.

So, if I keep the car (pessimistically) 10 years, I only need to save $350 a year on gas to come out ahead, considering car cost and fuel.

So, I drive about 7000 miles a year, and about 80% of that is city driving. So lets use 27 combined mpg for the standard model and 42 mpg for the hybrid.

So we have:

70K miles @ 27 mpg = 2600 gal. x $4.00 = $10,400 + $23000 = $33,400 total for the standard Camry LE.
70K miles @ 42 mpg = 1667 gal. x $4.00 = $6668 + $26500 = $33,168 total for the hybrid Camry LE.

OK, so at 10 years, I come out only a little ahead, as I drive a lot less than most people. If I kept the car more like 12-14 years, which I would as long as it ran OK, I come out well ahead.

But the good news is the air we breathe comes out WAY ahead, as I'm burning a third less gasoline.
So clearly it depends on the circumstances, but it's no longer like the math makes a hybrid an automatically stupid choice economically any more.

Now, consider that in a decade given Chindia, further climate regulations, etc. gasoline with tax could easily be $8.00 and the economics strongly favor the best hybrids. Consider further that we should expect substantial efficiency (and perhaps relative hybrid price) improvements over the next decade as well.

I think the likely path is clear. And no coal burning, mileage anxiety, huge battery issues for all electrics, etc. need even be considered (until that technology is ready to go mainstream, if ever).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby SamInNebraska » Mon 21 Jan 2013, 23:55:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')I will work on it again sometime later this year. Maybe even get it legal. Take THAT, overpriced, inferior Nissan Leaf.


Oh, I don't know. Took one of those things for a spin, and if it wasn't for the Toyota Prius plugin which is better suited for cross country road trips (a need in this modern world) it was pretty darn nice! Without the flavor of "homebuilt" which isn't always what it is cracked up to be. But keep up the good work ToeCutter, without backyard home builders I doubt half the current crop of peak oil fighting vehicles would even exist.
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Tue 22 Jan 2013, 00:56:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '
')Yes, if you pick those extremes, the numbers most definitely do NOT work out. However, hybrids are becoming more efficient and more available and the cost differential is coming down sharply.


Not only that, but a 75 mpg car wouldn't need to have anywhere near that kind of price premium to be viable. Most of the gains are from aerodynamics and weight reduction, two things that can be very cheap to do and can be done to satisfaction without resorting to exotic materials, technologies, or production methods. There is still a ridiculous amount of low-hanging fruit to be plucked with regard to automobile efficiency. The average new car on the market today has a drag coefficient significantly higher than the 1921 Rumpler shown in Fritz Lang's film "Metropolis."

The auto industry has already demonstrated such 70+ mpg cars as concepts as far back as 30 years ago. Volvo admitted its 1983 prototype, the LCP2000, which got 86 mpg highway, would have had no price premium over conventional vehicles. It was a low-drag vehicle with a small turbodiesel capable of seating 4 and suficient safety to allow all occupants to survive a head on collision at 45 mph with a much heavier vehicle; it only needed 50 horsepower to top out at 120 mph, and do 0-60 mph in 10 seconds, more than adequate performance for its time period. If it would have been built then, it would have also been the safest car Volvo had produced at the time.

Volvo sat on it instead. We don't have anything like it 30 years later, when the technology has improved by leaps and bounds versus then.

This same story is repeated through the rest of the major automakers with similar vehicles, ad nauseum. Many of their executives even admitted that these cars were "crisis cars", to only be built in a severe global fuel shortage, but otherwise never to be pursued, regardless of consumer demand.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ast time I checked, my current best candidate to replace my reliable 2003 Japanese midsized sedan is the 2012 or later Toyota Hybrid Camry.

The base LE model costs around $23000. EPA rated at 25 city / 35 highway.
The Hybrid LE model ONLY costs about $3500 more. EPA rated at 43 city / 39 highway.


$26,500? That's a lot of money! When I spend $12,000 on my battery and fix a few odd ends(paintjob), I'll have spent less than $20,000 on my EV total, including restoration of the vehicle, all of the other EV parts, and even paying experts to do some of the things I couldn't(welding). I understand my labor is free and the chassis was already built decades ago, but in the case of an OEM, labor is a very marginal cost anyway, and there is an abundance of mass produced chassis available in-house.

That battery will last no less than 5 years, provided the charger is programmed properly for the battery. It may last closer to 15-20 years in reality though; no one really knows, because these batteries have only been used in conversions since about 2002, and when properly charged and if not overheated from abuse, they don't die and instead deliver thousands of cycles. Some of the early Thundersky batteries did have problems though due to manufacturing defects, but even some of those are doing well today in conversions.

Simulation has my car needing just over 100 Wh/mile to do 60 mph, which is in-line with what Reverend Gadget's GT6-bodied Triumph Spitfire has achieved.

The real worry is how long my chassis will last; Triumphs were not known for their reliability or toughness, and were infamous for requiring about the same amount of hours in work as was spent driving it. If it breaks, I can move my parts into something else, although it may not be nearly as efficient unless I do a completely custom body.

$26,500 is literally enough money to set a world record in range with a custom built road-going EV, if you know what you're doing. Or you could buy a Camry hybrid.

I'd recommend you keep the 2003 sedan, and build something that needs no gasoline at all, and you'd have enough left over for a nice set of solar panels too. In the worst post-peak collapse or war-induced gas rationing, that car and those panels would probably be worth their weight in gold. Even a 100 mpg car is going to be nothing but a chicken coop in the future if you can't get the fuel to run it or make your own. With an EV, even if/when your batteries go bad, you could always rig up even crude DIY lead acid batteries of extremely low power and density using glass jars to house the materials, and still haul things or tool around town for short ranges; that's still much more than most people would have in that kind of scenario.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think the likely path is clear. And no coal burning, mileage anxiety, huge battery issues for all electrics, etc. need even be considered (until that technology is ready to go mainstream, if ever).


Even if its energy is from an outdated coal plant ready for decommission, an EV is still cleaner than most ICE cars of similar weight/aerodynamics from the early 2000s or prior, of course assuming that the emissions control systems of newer models are fully operational, never mind lower net CO2 emissions per mile. The batteries are much better than they used to be; lead acid used to require a conversion designed around its limitations to save money(most conversions in the past were more expensive to operate than gasoline, but a properly designed conversion could yield huge savings even with battery replacement costs factored in), but with off the shelf LiFePO4, you can break even well below $3.00/gallon gas on a per mile basis. For some strange reason, the OEMs are using an overpriced variant of the chemistry that performs worse than the CALBs by many measures(cycle life, calender life, cost), and their cars are ridiculously and irrationally expensive while refusing to take advantage of the inexpensive yet huge gains to be made in cruising range with better aerodynamics.

GM should bring back the EV1 with a CALB LiFePO4 pack and the drive system out of the Tesla Model S; I bet it would get 400 miles range with a $15,000, 50 kWh pack(the pack would be cheaper in high volume!), and 0-60 mph would be around 4 seconds.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SamInNebraska', 'O')h, I don't know. Took one of those things for a spin, and if it wasn't for the Toyota Prius plugin which is better suited for cross country road trips (a need in this modern world) it was pretty darn nice! Without the flavor of "homebuilt" which isn't always what it is cracked up to be. But keep up the good work ToeCutter, without backyard home builders I doubt half the current crop of peak oil fighting vehicles would even exist.


Home-built will prove a concept: the automakers aren't trying hard enough!

The Nissan Leaf, having a CdA that is average, with a curb weight close to that of the average car sold, would to regress to the mean with regard to its efficiency, were it not for its electric drive.

It needs 250 Wh/mile at steady state highway cruising in ideal weather conditions, yielding 100 miles range, or about 300 Wh/mile and 80 miles range in more "real-world" driving conditions. The 1996 GM EV1 needed about half that energy per mile under "real-world" conditions, the 1996 Solectria Sunrise, even less. There are scores of conversions that need less than 150 Wh/mile under "real world" conditions, even though conversions with that efficiency aren't the norm. Take the same size 24 kWh battery pack from the Leaf, but put it in the more efficient car needing 150 Wh/mile. Look at what happens to the range. Like magic, you've added not one damned dime to the cost of the battery, yet received this giant leap in range from 80 miles to 130 miles for adding the few hundred dollars per car it takes to wind tunnel test it and tweak its shape, and subtracting thousands of dollars from the cost by removing all of the luxury features from coming standard to save hundreds of pounds of weight.

What do you think that would do to the potential market?

The Leaf is a pretty nice car, don't get me wrong, but it could have been, and should be, so much more. I know that Nissan can build a much more efficient EV than a bunch of high school kids during the 1990s on a shoe string budget or Dave Cloud did for under $3,000(200 mile range "Dolphin" on primitive golf cart lead acid batteries, look it up), but yet they don't.

EVs should have been mainstream 2 decades ago. The technology was good enough then.

It's even better today.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Why all of a sudden Americans love small cars?

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 23 Jan 2013, 11:42:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '
')WHY would it cost at least $50k? Seriously, why? All that is needed is for a mass produced platform that is rear wheel drive and sturdy to be used as a basis. Do a little wind tunnel work without giving the stylists any input until a basic, aerodynamic shape is achieved to meet the car's function. THEN let the stylists have at it, not the other way around. Over a production run of 5 figures or more, per car, extensive wind tunnel testing to yield a fleshed out car with a sub 0.2 drag coefficient would cost much less than $100 per car sold. Use an inexpensive manual transmission, say, some nice beefy parts out of a cheap entry-level truck, a RWD platform with similar truck parts, and keep the car extremely simple and no-frills to keep the costs as low as possible.


You have some good points, but I'm not going to respond to them all. It is sufficient to say there's no market for it because it can't/hasn't been done in places in the world that would eat it like hotcakes, so no way is it going to happen in the US. In places where people can barely afford gasoline there's no mass-market 75mpg, $15k cars. In Europe, where gas is at or over $10/gallon, there's no $15k car that gets 75mpg. If it can't be done in places that have a massive vested interest in having it, it can't be done in the US, where safety regulations are strong and car buyers expect a certain level of luxury. There's really no motorcycles on the road that are getting 75MPG, so there's not going to be any cars doing it either.

And, again, the value of higher MPG shrinks the greater you climb:

15mpg car over 15,000 miles uses 1,000 gallons of gas.
30mpg car over 15,000 miles uses 500 gallons of gas - savings of $1500 @ $3/gallon over 15mpg car
60mpg car over 15,000 miles uses 250 gallons of gas - savings of $750 @ $3/gallon over 30mpg car
75mpg car over 15,000 miles uses 200 gallons of gas - savings of $150 @ $3/gallon over 60mpg car

It's the law of diminishing returns. When you can buy a car that gets 35mpg for $15k brand new, you have to do a lot of driving to justify 50mpg out of a $25k Prius:

100,000 miles @ 35mpg = 2,857 gallons @ $4 = $11,428
100,000 miles @ 50mpg = 2,000 gallons @ $4 = $8,000 savings of $3,428 - $10,000 initial outlay = $6,500 loss.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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