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Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.
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Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 22 Nov 2012, 02:19:36

Researchers on a scientific quest to understand Higgs Boson
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '&')quot;There is an important and fundamental synergy that's not to be missed in challenging the deepest scientific questions of our time, while simultaneously educating new generations of scientists and engineers, and developing technologies that can advance society and propel the world's economy in the future," says Saul Gonzalez
...
"Historically, we know that fundamental research is the engine that drives technology," says Tuts. "I can't assure you that discovering a Higgs particle will help you tomorrow, or make your life better tomorrow, but in 10 years, 20 years, maybe 50 years, the fundamental research that we're doing now is going to be the technology of the future."
That, adds Tuts, is how science has worked throughout history.
"You could go back to the time of Michael Faraday, who did experiments on electricity. And, people said, 'Well that's cute, that's interesting, but so what?' Well, could you imagine our life without electricity? It's so fundamental to us. I think, in the future, we'll see that," adds Tuts.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 22 Nov 2012, 07:14:16

Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Beery1 » Thu 22 Nov 2012, 09:58:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'S')omehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever.


You're probably right. Just like peak oil, there will be a 'peak technology', and just like peak oil, we've found all the low-hanging fruit and the super giant fields when it comes to tech. Future discoveries will probably be smaller and less meaningful even though there's still plenty of new stuff to be discovered. The problem is, all that stuff is in places that are harder and harder to reach.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Fri 23 Nov 2012, 00:50:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')e: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank
by Beery1 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:58 pm

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever.


You're probably right. Just like peak oil, there will be a 'peak technology', and just like peak oil,


Peak technology? You gotta be kidding, right? Or is the earth flat perchance?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')nergyUnlimited wrote:
Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever

And of the discoveries made along the scientific road of discovery to prove or disprove theories associated with the Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 or LENR/Cf or Condensed Matter etc.? Top educated approach EU, as usual.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 23 Nov 2012, 05:52:55

Without something to replace fossil fuels, yes, peak technology is not just inevitable but imminent.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Fri 23 Nov 2012, 09:41:49

"by SeaGypsy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:52 pm

Without something to replace fossil fuels, yes, peak technology is not just inevitable but imminent."

Do you not think technology will find the solution to "something to replace fossil fuels"? or will that discovery come on the rhs of the bell curve? If that is so, technology will then in turn attack the lhs side of the bell curve ascending it to peak again? "...peak technology is not just inevitable but imminent..." plain crazy talk. Or is it? please explain, I would like to know just why science will die in the very imminent future.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Beery1 » Fri 23 Nov 2012, 16:09:08

How on Earth do you think we can fuel technological advances without plentiful cheap energy?

Technological advances don't come to a society whose people are starving. The RHS of the bell curve will involve us desperately trying to feed the 5 billion people who cannot exist without cheap and plentiful oil. If there is to be a technological answer to peak oil, we needed to find it 20 years ago.

The likelihood of us finding a technological solution to peak oil now or in the future is about the same as expecting Leonardo da Vinci to invent and produce a working television in the year 1492. No matter how clever da Vinci was, it couldn't be done because he didn't have the necessary access to inexpensive energy. If Leonardo da Vinci and the inventors of his time had had access to abundant fossil fuels, powered flight would probably have happened in the 16th Century instead of the 20th. It was not human brainpower that ignited the inventions of the 18th, 19th and 20th Centuries; we've been this smart for tens of thousands of years. No, what powered the industrial revolution was cheap and abundant energy.

Knowledge and technology without cheap and abundant energy are never going to produce what can be produced when the energy is added to the equation. Without cheap oil, we can barely even build a flying machine, let alone power it. The idea that we'll be using jet airliners in a post-peak world is ludicrous. The same applies to all the inventions that rely on oil - you just cannot build or power them with anything else unless you accept a massive reduction in the machine's ability. And if you can't power the engines that technology relies on, there will be no tech solution possible.

Heck, without oil, you can barely even build an efficient bicycle. And you think we'll go on inventing new utopian stuff in a post peak world? That's ludicrous!
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby autonomous » Fri 23 Nov 2012, 21:15:10

Confirmation of the Higgs Boson is a historic milestone. It was first hypothesized in the 1960s and is the final piece of the Standard Model. It took 50 years of monumental effort to confirm the existence of the Higgs Boson, but just like the discovery of the solar system, discovering the Higgs boson is not likely to radically change life for most people — it will not lead to better communications devices or fancy new electronics, or new sources of energy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s yet, there have been no indications for physics beyond the Standard Model and the latest Higgs results are very consistent with the theory. This is problematic since some physicists had expected to see some interesting or new particles by now yet nothing has yet appeared. Some researchers are hoping details of the Higgs properties will point to the place they should look.

“What would be the worst scenario, is if the Higgs boson turns out to be exactly what’s in the present theory, and there’s no hint of anything else,” said Wise.


http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/07/higgs-boson-discovery/
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Sun 25 Nov 2012, 06:54:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')y Beery1 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:09 pm

How on Earth do you think we can fuel technological advances without plentiful cheap energy?

Technological advances don't come to a society whose people are starving. The RHS of the bell curve will involve us desperately trying to feed the 5 billion people who cannot exist without cheap and plentiful oil. If there is to be a technological answer to peak oil, we needed to find it 20 years ago.

The likelihood of us finding a technological solution to peak oil now or in the future is about the same as expecting Leonardo da Vinci to invent and produce a working television in the year 1492.


Beery1, since the beginning of recorded history some folk have lived in abject poverty, others in obscene grossness and until c.1860 (Belgian engineer Étienne Lenoir) there were reputedly no reliable gasoline motors. The point here is, people "did" exist without cheap and plentiful oil and conducted scientific research to boot.

As to Leonardo da Vinci, his foresightedness into flight encouraged the scientific community to experiment, particularly at a time when getting "burned a the stake" was pretty popular. The fancy of flight overcame all obstacles put in the pathway of success by the nay-sayers.

Fossil fuels were available in Leonardo da Vinci's times coal was utilized for cooking etc, light oils and pitch for lighting but that was their only practicable use at the time. Petrol was basically a by-product of kerosene manufacture until petrol/diesel motors were improved to a point of reliability and had a few wheel added.

Thales of Miletus (c. 620 - c. 546 B.C.) - abstract geometry, Pythagoras of Samos astronomy/geometry, to realize the Morning Star and Evening Star were the same, Euclid of Alexandria, (c. 325-265 B.C.), who deduced light traveled in straight lines or rays, and wrote a textbook on algebra, number theory, and geometry that is still relevant. And meanwhile, you claim "It was not human brainpower that ignited the inventions".

"What powered the industrial revolution was cheap and abundant energy" may be so, but how, initially,to deliver that power was the trick, and utilizing steam deduced through the scientific process was not an overnight invention, much like the push for new and radical energy sources now occurring in our own time, but it was that utilization and unforeseen applications of steam that drove the Industrial Reveloution, e.g. Jenner and his cotton mills.

"And you think we'll go on inventing new utopian stuff in a post peak world?" Yes, I most certainly do, written - albeit anecdotal history, has proven that people don't stop thinking to advance their take on life, no matter what. For instance, what did the person who invented the flame thrower have in mind for such an insidious device?
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 25 Nov 2012, 12:15:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '
')And of the discoveries made along the scientific road of discovery to prove or disprove theories associated with the Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 or LENR/Cf or Condensed Matter etc.? Top educated approach EU, as usual.

Above is just a blabber.
Spin off technologies or proving/disproving theory is not making Higgs Boson *in itself* useful.
Existence of Higgs Boson only confirmed that theory called Standard Model is useful, what we have known anyway for quite a while but now we got the final proof.
Higgs Boson will remain most sought after, most unstable (not sure, maybe Top Quark is even less stable), most expensive and yet most useless elementary particle produced by man.

On the other hand Large Hadron Collider will probably become to be *the most expensive machine* ever built purposely designed to deliver *the most useless product*.

Even E-cat is more useful:
At least it can be used to extract money from few fools.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby SilentRunning » Mon 26 Nov 2012, 02:05:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Beery1', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'S')omehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever.


You're probably right. Just like peak oil, there will be a 'peak technology', and just like peak oil, we've found all the low-hanging fruit and the super giant fields when it comes to tech. Future discoveries will probably be smaller and less meaningful even though there's still plenty of new stuff to be discovered. The problem is, all that stuff is in places that are harder and harder to reach.


Agreed, and you can see that in the sheer cost and size of the instruments needed to reach farther and farther knowledge. Faraday and the other early scientists who discovered electricity did their experiments with equipment that could be easily fabricated by a skilled artisan or two in far less than a week. Their experiments could be easily funded by a modestly well off individual.

Today's physics experiments call for a cast of thousands of highly skilled technologists who have to work for a decade or more, and costs are so high that many nations have to pitch in to make the project affordable.

Even if Higg's bosons could some how be manipulated to do some interesting technology, it will take enormous energies and machines to produce them. You can't make streams of highly focused particles with energies of billions of electron volts from Popsicle sticks and chewing gum - because if you could then today's cutting edge particle physics could be done by kids in high school.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Mon 26 Nov 2012, 06:37:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')nergyUnlimited wrote:
Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')aromi wrote And of the discoveries made along the scientific road of discovery to prove or disprove theories associated with the Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 or LENR/Cf or Condensed Matter etc.? Top educated approach EU, as usual.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he European Organization for Nuclear Research (French: Organisation européenne pour la recherche nucléaire), known as CERN or Cern ( /ˈsɜrn/;French pronunciation: [sɛʁn]; see History) is an international organization whose purpose is to operate the world's largest particle physics laboratory. Established in 1954, the organization is based in the northwest suburbs of Geneva on the Franco–Swiss border, (46°14′3″N 6°3′19″E) and has 20 European member states.
The term CERN is also used to refer to the laboratory, which employs just under 2,400 full-time employees, 1,500 part-time employees, and hosts some 10,000 visiting scientists and engineers, representing 608 universities and research facilities and 113 nationalities.
(Wikipedia)

It was CERN credited with the discovery of the Higgs Bosun, and along the way, CERN designed and developed the INTERNET as we know it, or at least, did the majority of the footwork in R&D. A nice little aside when chasing an elusive goal (Higgs Bosun), isn't it? So much for a bit of blabber :-D There is so much research going on at the moment that a lot of end game research is diverted into curiosities discovered along the way, and they themselves then end up being a major science forum, thus attacking the lhs bell curve - again.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 26 Nov 2012, 12:46:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '
')It was CERN credited with the discovery of the Higgs Bosun, and along the way, CERN designed and developed the INTERNET as we know it, or at least, did the majority of the footwork in R&D. A nice little aside when chasing an elusive goal (Higgs Bosun), isn't it? So much for a bit of blabber :-D

1. I have heard a lot about bosons, eg force carrying particles of spin which can be expressed by natural number (including 0), but I am completely lost about bosuns.

2. Internet was operational in place before construction of LHC have started, so no causation can be established.
For sure it is not necessary to work on Higgs Boson to set Internet going.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here is so much research going on at the moment that a lot of end game research is diverted into curiosities discovered along the way, and they themselves then end up being a major science forum, thus attacking the lhs bell curve - again.

Sciences like geography - dead.
Sciences like chemistry or physics - dying, all low hanging fruit picked.
Sciences like molecular biology - much to be discovered (money permitting).

Note:
Properties of Higgs Boson and ramifications of its discovery are quite depressing for many physicists.
Higgs Boson have proven to be of most mundane properties between all predictions, it just closes Standart Model and doesn't give much hope for some new high energy physics, eg as per current understanding of matter some exciting theories like SUSY etc are being ruled out.
The same holds true for extra dimensions unrolling at accessible energies.
So as it stands we can achieve about 10^4 GeV.
New physics is expected to show up around and above 10^18 GeV and physics as we know it is expected to break down at 10^22 GeV.

It may be very *unwise* to piddle with energies approaching 10^22 GeV (and even 10^18 - 10^19 GeV would be pretty hazardous), but fortunately it is most unlikely to be ever possible.

So machine delivering ~10^8 GeV, the largest one possible to construct on Earth (limit due to restrictions related to synchrotron radiation, no way around it) may well fail to discover anything new.
So there may be no cause to build it in absence of hints about possible new discoveries.
Very depressing for high energy physics community.

Machine capable to deliver 10^18 GeV would be of size of the Solar System and one producing 10^22 GeV would be of size comparable to Galaxy.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Mon 26 Nov 2012, 22:34:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '
')
1. I have heard a lot about bosons, eg force carrying particles of spin which can be expressed by natural number (including 0), but I am completely lost about bosuns.

Pardon me Bosun (1868) = Ships officer, guy who usually blows whistle. Boson = As you say. 8)

2. Internet was operational in place before construction of LHC have started, so no causation can be established.
For sure it is not necessary to work on Higgs Boson to set Internet going.

What! CERN, the world's largest particle physics laboratory, was Established in 1954? The internet did not just "happen" overnight"! "Research is diverted into curiosities discovered along the way" That is what keeps, and will continue to keep scientific research going and post grad's occupied :lol: . Therefore, low hanging fruit, picked or not,developed or undeveloped will always remainn a challenge.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')by EnergyUnlimited » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark, or Element 110 will rest useless for ever


however, side issues or curiosities generated through research will still continue - full steam ahead.

Sciences like geography - dead. = Wrong, are you claiming we know and understand every, or nearly every geographical attribute on earth? Even if true, what about moon, martian and exploration and further? Obtainable through bold/new research projects.

Sciences like chemistry or physics - dying, all low hanging fruit picked. = Perhaps, what does the future hold, nothing? A cardboard plateau?

Sciences like molecular biology - much to be discovered (money permitting). In a few hundred years (or since the development of gunpowder by the Chinese) we can understand all physics and earth sciences? There is nothing left to discover? That may well depend on funds, but funds from where? There are many more global residents now than in Leonardo da Vinci's time willing to contribute, some of whom are looking for lust, others for fame, but for some, just because they care.


It may be very *unwise* to piddle with energies approaching 10^22 GeV (and even 10^18 - 10^19 GeV would be pretty hazardous), but fortunately it is most unlikely to be ever possible. As our present understanding of physics permits my emphasis

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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 27 Nov 2012, 04:44:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')2. Internet was operational in place before construction of LHC have started, so no causation can be established.
For sure it is not necessary to work on Higgs Boson to set Internet going.


What! CERN, the world's largest particle physics laboratory, was Established in 1954? The internet did not just "happen" overnight"! "Research is diverted into curiosities discovered along the way" That is what keeps, and will continue to keep scientific research going and post grad's occupied :lol: . Therefore, low hanging fruit, picked or not,developed or undeveloped will always remainn a challenge.

I was not writting about CERN, only about LHC.

As per my understanding of matters Internet started as military network, later upgraded by academics, including those from CERN.

Of course there is also a guy (Al Gore), who claims to be an inventor of it. :-D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ciences like geography - dead. = Wrong, are you claiming we know and understand every, or nearly every geographical attribute on earth? Even if true, what about moon, martian and exploration and further? Obtainable through bold/new research projects.

Geography as per definition is dealing with features on the surface of *Earth* and as such it is a dead subject.
OK, sometimes somewhere small volcanic island pops up here or there and other get submerged, but that is hardly relevant for overall picture.

And science dealing with features on surface of Moon would be called *Selenography* (Moon = Selene from Greek).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')There is nothing left to discover? That may well depend on funds, but funds from where? There are many more global residents now than in Leonardo da Vinci's time willing to contribute, some of whom are looking for lust, others for fame, but for some, just because they care.

There is quite a lot left to discover but quite mundane limitations related to being a *human on the Earth* are going to prevent it.
They will usually manifest themselves as *luck of funds and resources*.

I bet, there is an extremely exciting physics beginning around 10^16-10^18 GeV (and above 10^19 GeV this physics might get absolutely thrilling, permitting us to enter the world where magic never ends and for example create *designer Universes* with possibility of destroying our own in the process or defeating *causality* but Mother Nature or God if you believe in one made sure that such adventures will remain inaccessible for us).


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t may be very *unwise* to piddle with energies approaching 10^22 GeV (and even 10^18 - 10^19 GeV would be pretty hazardous), but fortunately it is most unlikely to be ever possible. As our present understanding of physics permits my emphasis
Unfortunately this understanding is supported by extensive astronomical observations of Universe.
It seems that Nature does not deal with such energies beyond event horizons of BH (if certain objects objects observed by us are BH indeed - there are also other possibilities) and sometimes they can be conceivably produced in events like collision of 2 neutron stars.
So no, new devices allowing to create such energies on Earth cannot be built.
We are not going to build accelerators size of Galaxy, neither are we going to tow 2 neutron stars and collide them for our pleasure.

OK,
in theory we could contemplate construction of accelerator size of Solar System which would produce ~10^16 GeV and rely on billions of small satellites accelerating (and deflecting) a beam across interplanetary space, but for financial and resource reason such an item will never be built.

Note:
10^16 GeV (10^19 MeV) is an approximate threshold where unification of strong and electroweak forces might be contemplated, about 10^17 - 10^18 GeV is where inflation might crop in (if it is a real phenomenon) and above 10^19 GeV (10^22 MeV) known physics breaks down for good.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby Laromi » Wed 28 Nov 2012, 03:14:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')y EnergyUnlimited » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:44 pm

Note:
10^16 GeV (10^19 MeV) is an approximate threshold where unification of strong and electroweak forces might be contemplated, about 10^17 - 10^18 GeV is where inflation might crop in (if it is a real phenomenon) and above 10^19 GeV (10^22 MeV) known physics breaks down for good.
and that, my friend, is where our dialogue breaks down. You see, I believe we, i.e. earths global inhabitants, are no where near exhausting the boundaries of physiks.

In a few hundred short years we have developed codes permitting rational storage and retrieval of data i.e. Caxton, Marconi, Baird et.al. (and Al Gore :P) and use that function as a stepping stone to group and analyze data. As a result, we have observed staid theories compromised, and some physical laws (why not others?) such as thermodynamics 2, getting a bit tattered at the edges through CF/LENR and C2 (CERN) for example.

LENR at a unit module cost of about $1000, maybe not of the 10^19 GeV scale, yet still a science with great potential.

CF/LENR remains an unexplained (maybe partially) phenonoma as does experimentation with nanomaterials. Nanoparticles are an altogether important advancement in science with the potential for far-reaching applications.

Would you care to guess the outcome and what discoveries may ensue from CF/LENR and the impact of particle speeds greater than C2 (CERN); that is, the impact C2 exerts on calcs and current commercial applications not scientific notation per se. That is the point I make in response to;

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')y EnergyUnlimited » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Somehow I believe that items like Higgs Boson, Top Quark or Element 110 will rest useless for ever.
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Re: Put a Higgs Boson in your tank

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 28 Nov 2012, 03:52:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laromi', '
')Would you care to guess the outcome and what discoveries may ensue from CF/LENR

Few fraudsters will get rich at the expense of many fools and few pathological scientists will carry on wasting money for a while, very much like it was with *polywater* in the past.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..and the impact of particle speeds greater than C2 (CERN);

C^2 is not a speed even.
Speed is measured in m/s and C^2 is m2/s2, so definitely not a speed :-D

On the top of it trumpeted discovery of *superluminal neutrinos* (moving >c) have been waffled down.
Scientists from CERN (Opera experiment) claiming discovery have made quite trivial systematic error and they retracted their claims with shame.

So to answer your question, impact will be none.

And even more sadly classical thermodynamics have *impeccable* record of accuracy in any imaginable *gravitationally bound* system, eg up to a scale of *galaxy cluster*.
And above this scale systems *do* tend to go out of equilibrium (so called *entropy gaps* etc) but you must understand that with progress of time objects beyond our galaxy cluster will surely fade beyond event horizon of observable Universe, mainly courtesy of expanding space and so called Dark Energy.
So for all practical purposes 2nd Law rulez and will finish you off.
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