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Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 00:03:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')his post shows a fair grasp of the relevant dynamics. Ultimately the grand system will collapse under the force of entropy; but this is quite some way off yet. In our lifetime we are probably just as likely to see some natural disaster trigger systemic collapse as an entropic forcing. ... If anything, capitalism is becoming more complex, more entrenched.

Actually, the "relevant dynamics" raised in the article supports my argument, especially as one reads the references to the need for growth to sustain that "complex, more entrenched" system.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 00:04:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', ' ')It's not like this hasn't happened before under the fascists in Germany when they had only coal to liquids to provide energy as well as a war machine to gobble up the same. It also has a precursor in that same time frame in the US via rationing for the war effort. Perhaps it is even being foreshadowed now in the guise of austerity measures overtaking Europe?

That's a static economy or a sustainable one, not capitalist.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 00:06:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')n the interim it's more about states needing to cooperate with corporations in order to perpetuate themselves, not capitalism per-se. Over time government is evolving through- for corporations to- by corporations.

Actually, that's a result of a capitalist system, as those who are supposed to be in power end up working for those who are actually in power. Hence,
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 00:09:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he gaping hole these green-left arguments is that even if growth was somehow magically terminated everywhere simultaneously (an impossibility) and a 'steady state' economy was somehow instituted (almost as impossible/ especially under anything resembling a democracy in any real way); the resource equations already happening would ensure that ultimate demise is at best just staved off a while. The only way to actually achieve an environmentally positive outcome is not through either of these means; but through dire totalitarian fascism with mandated reduction in both population and resource extraction.

I don't see them as "green-left arguments," rather arguments raised by those who know about peak oil.

As for "totalitarian fascism," it will happen in various regions, but it will not necessarily lead to "an environmentally positive outcome."
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 02:22:59

Those who know about peak oil but live in a fantasy land. Part B, but of course.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby Pops » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:10:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'E')ven though your business is the "right size" for your "market," that market might still be growing, which means competitors are filling in increasing demand. For that to happen, their business have to grow.

See the problem here?
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby Pops » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 13:31:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'I') don't think the question should be, 'does capitalism exist without growth', but 'what does capitalism look like in a no growth scenario?' Taken this way, in reference to my earlier posts, given that capitalism is an approximation of the evolutionary struggle at best I think capitalism has to fall back on some kind of state driven inspiration to find the means perpetuate itself. Whereas I suggest that a friendlier, perhaps more proper and sustainable form of capitalism under growth can exist absent of the 'love of money' in a strict no growth scenario very draconian measures may come about under the auspices of the state. It's not like this hasn't happened before under the fascists in Germany when they had only coal to liquids to provide energy as well as a war machine to gobble up the same. It also has a precursor in that same time frame in the US via rationing for the war effort. Perhaps it is even being foreshadowed now in the guise of austerity measures overtaking Europe?


That's a static economy or a sustainable one, not capitalist.

LOL, you're pretty funny Ralfy, yours is indeed a faith based argument. Good for you.

@Evil,
I've always thought capitalism was the best mechanism for resource extraction because it made resources available at the lowest cost possible. But that it wasn't the best after resources began contraction because it only rationed by price, not utility. Governments would do that better because they would ration by utility.

Resource nationalism is in fact continuing and it seems like eventually all resources will be under state control. I'm thinking more and more that is the worst case scenario because the government, being concerned with staying in power, will allocate resources based primarily on political expediency rather than maximizing profits which by extension favors utility.

IOW, Where capitalism allocates resources via price/utility rationing, oligarchs ration based on defending the oligarchy.

The perfect example is KSA. Remember a couple years ago when King Abdullah said he had halted exploration "to save the wealth for future generations"? I though Yea! I was right. But then the neighborhood blew up and KSA production increased by 2Mb/d so the king could give the entire population a bribe! That is the Iron Law of Oligarchy at work in just about as plain a fashion as you could want.

US and OECD demand is down and developing nations demand rising. Perhaps some or much of this demand increase is due to command economies such as China keeping prices for resources artificially low. But also it is the difference in utility between, say, using a gallon of FF to pump drinking water and using it to drive the Expedition to the Qik Sac for a bottle of Crystal Geyser.

Capitalism is ruthless but oligarchy is hopeless.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 16 Aug 2012, 17:11:50

At least American Dream had the common sense to realize the futility of his argument and go back to full time trading, leaving political writing to grown ups. There seems to be no end to Ralphy's fantasmagorical preachery.

As capitalism as we know it begins to fail, more and more people will opt for alternative lifestyles, more sustainable and equitable/ by free choice. This is an allowance not available to oligarchy or totalitarian regimes. It is already happening and it is a good thing. Folks like Raphy and the rest of the green-left dreamers think it's all too slow and something better could and should be made to happen, forced. Reality is the attempt would create ultimate hostility, wasting massive amounts of resources and a horrible life to be stuck in.

Capitalism is relatively ruthless, but it currently sustains the welfare state, without which certain people would have to be out planting potatoes instead of arguing dreamland scenarios on the internet.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 17 Aug 2012, 03:23:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'E')ven though your business is the "right size" for your "market," that market might still be growing, which means competitors are filling in increasing demand. For that to happen, their business have to grow.
See the problem here?

If the market does not grow, then your profit is made at the expense of others, and it will not last. That's not capitalism, which requires continued profits (your point), and which in turn can only take place given growth.

Again, go back to the article, and the points that you and I quoted. Capitalists are motivated by profit but the system that they thrive in can only remain given growth. The writer made that very clear.

Thus, the problem is that you only looked at the first part of the writer's argument and not the second. You made the same error when you tried to define capitalism: (private ownership and profit only).
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 17 Aug 2012, 03:54:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')OL, you're pretty funny Ralfy, yours is indeed a faith based argument. Good for you.

Actually, my argument is the same as that of the writer. Yours is based on only the first part of what the writer said. See my previous message for details (the one where you cited several lines from the paragraph and where I responded by posting the rest).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '@')Evil, I've always thought capitalism was the best mechanism for resource extraction because it made resources available at the lowest cost possible. But that it wasn't the best after resources began contraction because it only rationed by price, not utility. Governments would do that better because they would ration by utility.

About capitalism being the "best mechanism for resource extraction," that very much proves my point! The problem is that if the price of resources sold is increased, then sales do not go up because the resources are too expensive. Worse, if competition is involved, then one has to lower his prices in order to compete. How, then, can one increase profits without raising prices? The answer is to increase production. How is that ensured? By the fact that capitalism is the "best mechanism for resource extraction"!

That's why For the past few decades we've seen increasing resource extraction coupled with increasing consumption.

Again, we're back to what one forum member argued earlier, i.e., if an efficient mechanism for resource extraction, one can extract a given amount of resources, and then have more free time for recreation. But in a capitalist system that involves competition, a competitor can do the opposite: use the same efficient mechanism to increase resource extraction, and given lower costs per unit produced take over market share.

A government can form a dictatorship, take over all means of production, and "ration by utility." The irony is that this actually destroys what makes capitalism the "best mechanism for resource extraction." In fact, given a "ration by utility," there is less need to come up with a "best mechanism for resource extraction" utility!

Also, this contradicts your previous claims, that capitalism is based on private ownership (not the case for state capitalism and, ironically, your latest point) and involves profit (which goes against rationing). But this is a minor point compared to the implication that a dictatorship will always act in the interest of those that it controls serves. Yeah, right. So much for "faith-based arguments"!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')esource nationalism is in fact continuing and it seems like eventually all resources will be under state control. I'm thinking more and more that is the worst case scenario because the government, being concerned with staying in power, will allocate resources based primarily on political expediency rather than maximizing profits which by extension favors utility.

Actually, maximizing profits does not favor utility. See the article referred to in this thread for details.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')OW, Where capitalism allocates resources via price/utility rationing, oligarchs ration based on defending the oligarchy.

Actually, capitalism doesn't allocate resources via rationing but via intentions to profit. In which case, what is rationed in one situation will be used for another purpose. If any, underutilized resources and infrastructure are considered part of costs.

If we are referring to an oligarchy whose wealth consists mostly of money, then the last thing that they want to see is rationing (and I mean actual rationing, not re-allocation of resources), as that would lead to decreased production, and in turn decreased sales and, for them, profits.

That is why the only thing that the oligarchy wants is "business as usual," and that means denying predicaments like peak oil, global warming, and debt-driven economies. Free market capitalists, meanwhile, will argue that market forces will "save" us from such predicaments. State capitalists refer to totalitarian fascism.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he perfect example is KSA. Remember a couple years ago when King Abdullah said he had halted exploration "to save the wealth for future generations"? I though Yea! I was right. But then the neighborhood blew up and KSA production increased by 2Mb/d so the king could give the entire population a bribe! That is the Iron Law of Oligarchy at work in just about as plain a fashion as you could want.
Exactly! For the first time, although you probably did not mean to, you hit it right on the dot. This is PRECISELY my point. Capitalism requires growth, which is why KSA will keep pumping that oil, its citizens will keep looking forward to increased prosperity, and oil importers will keep buying. And when oil production starts dropping and there's no more bribe money, then watch out!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')S and OECD demand is down and developing nations demand rising. Perhaps some or much of this demand increase is due to command economies such as China keeping prices for resources artificially low. But also it is the difference in utility between, say, using a gallon of FF to pump drinking water and using it to drive the Expedition to the Qik Sac for a bottle of Crystal Geyser.
Capitalism is ruthless but oligarchy is hopeless.
You got it again! Damn, you're on a roll! Keep it up.

We're not just looking at "command economies" but BRIC and emerging markets, with growing middle classes and far large populations. With that, demand will be the least of our worries, as that large global population will soon offset demand destruction from OECD countries.

With that, capitalism is not just "ruthless" but inevitable, as the basic needs alone of over 60 pct of the world's population will require significant levels of resources. In general, we only have a bio-capacity of 1.8 global hectares per capita for the global population, and not only will that population rise but that bio-capacity will even drop given environmental damage.

The problem, as pointed out in the article, is that in order to meet that demand the global economy has to keep growing, and more so in terms of resource extraction. But peak oil will make that impossible. With that...well look up "cannibalistic capitalism" followed by a "dismal end."
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 17 Aug 2012, 04:09:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'A')t least American Dream had the common sense to realize the futility of his argument and go back to full time trading, leaving political writing to grown ups. There seems to be no end to Ralphy's fantasmagorical preachery.


The problem is that "full-time trading" means someone else now has to buy, which means the "American Dream" is now transferred elsewhere. Why do you think car and appliance sales have been going up in China and in many parts of Asia? Why do you think something like meat consumption per capita per annum for countries like China more than doubled in only two decades (from 20 kg in 1984 to 50 kg by 2004)? And those countries have far larger populations compared to those in OECD countries. And what about peak oil? Can full-time trading continue given that?

Given that, I think I give no "fantasmagorical preachery." If any, my arguments simply describe what has been happening the last three decades or so.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
As capitalism as we know it begins to fail, more and more people will opt for alternative lifestyles, more sustainable and equitable/ by free choice. This is an allowance not available to oligarchy or totalitarian regimes. It is already happening and it is a good thing. Folks like Raphy and the rest of the green-left dreamers think it's all too slow and something better could and should be made to happen, forced. Reality is the attempt would create ultimate hostility, wasting massive amounts of resources and a horrible life to be stuck in.



Wait a minute: I gave those arguments, not you. 8O You kept referring to the "beauty of capitalism" and how it has been in place for so long and will remain so. Given that, why are you now stating that it is beginning to fail? Aren't those supposed to my my lines? :-D

You also state that sustainable living will work against totalitarian regimes, and it's implicit in this message that you support it. But didn't you argue the opposite earlier? I quote:

"The only way to actually achieve an environmentally positive outcome is not through either of these means; but through dire totalitarian fascism with mandated reduction in both population and resource extraction. Neither democratic, nor in any way politically possible. Nobody is going to vote for/ rationing of every essential commodity/ maximum breeding rates/ forced minimum health requirements for continued life/ forced sterilization/ forced place of living and occupation. In reality the 'steady state' arguments advocate flattening growth globally, meaning forcing limits on the developing world whilst continuing our high living in the first world. Blatantly immoral; either way."

So, let's see if I get this right so far: you support capitalism, even referring to the selling of human flesh as a good example of that (even though that's a wrong example), as well as refer to the "beauty" of capitalism as seen in collectives (actually, a wrong argument, as the latter goes against the former), even though you referred to the same idea of collectives as mired in "bloodbaths" and "mass control." Of course, after that, you refer to "totalitarian fascism" as essential (or is it inevitable?), even though now you say the opposite, and even given such a naive view of such totalitarianism as forcing those who have to give up much of what they have in favor of the have-nots.

Well, so much for "fantasmagorical preachery"! :roll:

By the way, a "more sustainable and equitable" lifestyle is similar to what "green-left dreamers" want. :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Capitalism is relatively ruthless, but it currently sustains the welfare state, without which certain people would have to be out planting potatoes instead of arguing dreamland scenarios on the internet.


However.... (see the article for the rest of the argument).
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 17 Aug 2012, 05:23:13

Can't be bothered.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 19 Aug 2012, 03:30:26

It is not so difficult to understand the arguments raised by the author of the article referred to in this thread. Go back to the wiki entry shared by Pops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Take a look at the first sentence. Notice that it's not just private ownership of the means of production that is involved but also profit.

Next, go back to Pops' reference to maintaining expenses using profits. I forgot to mention that profits are not used to maintain expenses but revenues. That is, the profit is the difference between revenue and expense.

Now, go back to the wiki entry, and take a look at "Economic Elements." Notice that there are two components involved: capital goods and consumer goods. The former and used to make the latter. There are two other elements involved: land (or usually fixed assets, things that aren't consumed to transform capital to consumer goods, although they may depreciate) and labor. Later, you will see that the profits are used to gather more capital goods, which logically will be used to make more consumer goods. The result is that land and labor should make up a smaller component of expenses, and thus allow for more profits. Also, the need for more profits will be explained after.

Next, go to the paragraph after that. It explains how the capital goods plus labor (the labor market) are used by a "goods and services market" (capitalists owning land and the means of production) to produce consumer goods at a profit (for capitalists), with the consumer goods sold back to the labor market. That's capitalism.

What's the problem, then? It's that the price of consumer goods is higher than the labor cost. In which case, the labor market cannot obviously afford to buy the consumer goods. Why is this so? Because a profit was included in the price of consumer goods. Profit acts like interest in loans, except that the borrower must already have the principal plus interest ready in order to borrow the principal. Note that such a system requires growth, simply because of the presence of profit.

Who pays for the profit? There are many ways. One is labor: the same labor market can be made to produce more consumer goods given the same wages. That way, prices of consumer goods will drop while capitalists receive the same profits because the labor cost of each consumer goods has gone down through more production. Again, notice the requirement of growth.

Another is to increase credit. This can happen if the labor market cannot produce any more given the same labor cost. The credit can be used to increase technology or to offer money to the labor market to buy consumer goods. That's where the financial market comes in, and it's described in the same wiki entry (see subsequent paragraphs in the same entry). The same market will charge for interest for what it lends. Notice what was mentioned earlier about profits and interest. In this case, interest is the profit made by the lender, and the borrower can only pay that back if what he earns from what he borrows is greater than what he borrows. For that to happen, he has to make a profit from his capital goods. With that, go back to what was mentioned earlier about capital and consumer goods. From there, notice again how growth is a requirement in the same system.

Once the system becomes more complex, then it becomes increasing difficult to use physical assets such as precious metals as means of payment or of credit. In which case, paper money is then used, generally promissory notes where the borrower promises to pay back what was purchased at some later date. At that later date, he will certainly have to produce more to pay for that plus current expenses plus interest on the loan. Again, notice how growth is a requirement, in this case more consumer goods produced because more credit is created.

Part of that complexity involves competition. It was mentioned earlier that with better technology, one can make the same amount of consumer goods at less time, which means he may have more free time. But in competition, someone else may have another idea: the same technology will allow him to produce more consumer goods given time he currently uses. The result for the latter is lower prices, as there is more production given the same labor cost plus fixed assets. Since consumers will logically buy what is cheaper, then those who don't utilize technology properly will lose market share. Again, notice how growth is required in the system.

The same applies to non-utilized capital goods and unsold consumer goods. If they are left in inventory, the business may lose money due to holding and opportunity costs. But one goes against the other: clearly capital goods need to be utilized, but that will mean more unsold consumer goods. The same can happen in one point above, as more is produced to lower labor cost. The answer for businesses involve combinations of marketing and fulfilling demand that has not been satisfied. We can see this in examples given earlier: replacing an F-150 with a Prius, moving from a mature market to an emerging one. Again, growth is required in the system.

What about the labor market? Most want more pay as they go through years of work, probably because they want to, using a previous example, replace ox carts with F-150s. There are many ways to do that. One is to increase profit, and then use that to promote personnel and expand the business. Again, growth is required for that to happen, as higher prices may lead to lower sales; the solution is to increase production, which involves using better technology and expansion. Another is for the financial market to extend credit, which is inevitable as the financial market earn from interest earned as they extend credit, and since the principal and interest have to be paid for, then the borrow has to produce and sell more. Once more, growth is required, especially if the credit is used for expansion.

What about capitalists? The profit may be shared as retained earnings to the financial market or used to expand the goods and services market. The reasons for both are seen clearly in previous points, with the financial market requiring interest or returns on investment and expansion needed to increase production to lower the labor and fixed costs of consumer goods, increase earnings of the labor market, etc. What is clear, though, is that any profit is re-invested in another businesses or in the business itself. To ensure an increase from that investment, production has to go up. Again, growth is required.

There are more points to consider, but I'll stop here. Meanwhile, go the "Criticisms" section of the wiki entry. How are all of the points raised above connected to critical views of capitalism. First, it is inevitable that concentration of wealth will take place among the goods and services market, but they can only earn more if the labor market not only produces but consumes more. Thus, the financial market also essentially relies on the labor market to do the same so that they will receive returns on investment. Again, growth is required.

Notice, though, the interesting contradiction of exploitation and dependence: capitalists can maintain their financial power only by exploiting the masses, but that exploitation requires increasing production and consumption of consumer goods to the same masses! That is because, ultimately, much of the wealth of capitalists is found in the financial market, which can only earn as more borrow. But more will borrow only if they will produce or consume more. Again, growth is required.

Can the system go on? Yes, but only if more people are produced and more resources are found. Thus, those who are capitalists will maintain financial power, more from the labor market become part of goods and services market, and most of the labor market will join them as better technologies are employed to make consumer goods abundant at less time. The vision of capitalism, then, is some space age where consumer goods are so abundant thanks to technology that credit will no longer matter. But because it's the same credit that makes the financial market powerful, then what results is, ironically, the same utopia of egalitarianism and comfort envisioned in communism!

Thus, it will not matter what type of capitalism takes place. If there aren't enough capital goods to produce more consumer goods and thus maintain growth, then that capitalist system will fail. As the article points out, what takes place is cannibalistic capitalism, not a type of capitalism but a condition where some exploit others but with no possibility of continued profits. If any, such a condition leads to the demise of such a system.

From there, one can see very, very clearly the connections between this topic and peak oil, as peak oil represents the lack of capital goods. Given that, I don't understand how many of you have posted hundreds of thousands of messages in a peak oil site and never saw connections between the two, which might explain why you came up with the horribly absurd idea that capitalism doesn't require or involve growth!

Want more evidence? Read the other threads of the forum. Can't be bothered? That's not my problem.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 19 Aug 2012, 06:35:26

Banks, investors, are NOT obliged to invest generally. They can invest where and with whom they choose. If 80% lose money, 50% go broke, 15% break even but 5% make money, that is still capitalism. You really are like a broken record.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 19 Aug 2012, 07:34:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', ' ')Yada, Yaddah growth is mandatory, you are all in kindergarten economics 101 according to grand master Ralphy.....But because it's the same credit that makes the financial market powerful, then what results is, ironically, the same utopia of egalitarianism and comfort envisioned in communism!

(Burping on popcorn) 8O
Can anyone here explain this sentence?
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby Pops » Sun 19 Aug 2012, 12:52:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')t's that the price of consumer goods is higher than the labor cost.

That is called opportunity cost, it is the incentive for the capitalist to spend his time and capital on that endeavor instead of another. The laborer basically has the same decision whether to spend his time (human capital) on this job or that or sit on his butt and do nothing.

Profit is merely the value of surplus above subsistence.
If you need one potato to survive and you can grow 2, that is surplus.
If another guy needs one pair of shoes and can make 2, that's surplus.
If they trade, that's profit.
Multiply by 6 billion
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 21 Aug 2012, 02:54:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'B')anks, investors, are NOT obliged to invest generally. They can invest where and with whom they choose. If 80% lose money, 50% go broke, 15% break even but 5% make money, that is still capitalism. You really are like a broken record.


Your second sentence doesn't even support your first sentence: the first refers to an obligation to invest but the second refers to the type of investment to choose!

The third sentence DOESN'T prove that capitalism doesn't require growth, not even close! What it shows is that capitalist systems go through ups and downs, but the trend line is supposed to be upward. Because if the trend line is downward, then the system ends!

So much for a broken record! :roll:
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 21 Aug 2012, 02:58:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', ' ')Yada, Yaddah growth is mandatory, you are all in kindergarten economics 101 according to grand master Ralphy.....But because it's the same credit that makes the financial market powerful, then what results is, ironically, the same utopia of egalitarianism and comfort envisioned in communism!

(Burping on popcorn) 8O
Can anyone here explain this sentence?


Very easy! The goods and services and financial market rely on more production and consumption from the labor market for reasons explained clearly earlier. But that means increasing prosperity for the labor market, which leads to a middle class lifestyle for all. There's your egalitarianism!

The same goes for communism, but this time with state capitalism.

The flaw in both systems? They require increase resource consumption to ensure growth, which won't happen.

So much for burping on popcorn! :roll:
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 21 Aug 2012, 03:01:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')t's that the price of consumer goods is higher than the labor cost.

That is called opportunity cost, it is the incentive for the capitalist to spend his time and capital on that endeavor instead of another. The laborer basically has the same decision whether to spend his time (human capital) on this job or that or sit on his butt and do nothing.

Profit is merely the value of surplus above subsistence.
If you need one potato to survive and you can grow 2, that is surplus.
If another guy needs one pair of shoes and can make 2, that's surplus.
If they trade, that's profit.
Multiply by 6 billion


Exactly! And given competition, the incentive leads to increased production. That's explained in the wiki entry that you shared and the article.

Your second point also proves my argument! Profit requires increasing growth in production, and the wiki entry and the article state the same.
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Re: Meet Cannibalistic Capitalism: Globalization's Evil Twin

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 21 Aug 2012, 03:27:35

The bouncing record bangs away....
Capitalism is dead. Growth has ended so has capitalism. Long live communist paradise.
(Really I can't see how you can continue to post such drivel. Your argument makes no logical sense. The point is clear as day. Capitalism running out of resources continues by cannibalising the weak within it's realm. I only posted here to agree that the OP states the obvious. Your rant amounts to pages and pages of b/s. You have no evidence that capitalism is failing despite production ceilings being reached. There is tonnes of evidence for the argument taken in the OP and it's linked source article. Eventually capitalism as a global system will reach it's terminus. That is a very long way off from now. In the interim it is hybridising. The current hybrid is about ripping the excess wealth off the former middle class, levelling the global wage field; it's all continued play of globalist enterprise as expected. No disappointments or surprises for those aware of peak resources and the globalcorp vision. Your fantasy that the system is about to total itself shall remain a fantasy for the foreseeable.)
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