[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', 'Y')ou guys sure argue a lot for three people who appear to agree about just about everything except the definition of the word capitalism.

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '&')quot;capital in the form of money", as it stands today, is nothing but "the debts of others" by another name. ... Capitalism does not do what it says it does. it only ever looks that way while the economy is growing. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hus, what's maximized is profit, which in turn is used as capital to increase production. Waste is the result of that, which includes pollution and overproduction.

[Quinny]

+1

The confusion seems to arise by confusion between trade and capitalism. Trade takes place in any 'ism'.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', 'Y')ou guys sure argue a lot for three people who appear to agree about just about everything except the definition of the word capitalism.

[SeaGypsy]

Ralphy thinks we are all either stupid or have never grokked peak oil.
There was once upon a time forms of capital which had zilch to do with money. I'm pretty sure most words to do with 'capital' come from the cattle trade; which has arguably gone on almost as long as the trade in women. A hell of a lot longer than money has been around.

[The Practician]

To be fair Ralfy has a good point in that as far as "Isms" go, it is silly to call a system wherein the instruments and institutions of our former global growth engine begin to cannibalize themselves capitalism because at that point reality really starts to diverge from ideology.

But this is a truly minor quibble. like I mentioned earlier, the word "capitalism" gets thrown around a lot. What everyone seems to agree on is that "cannibalistic capitalism" is going to be the norm for an undefined period of time going forward, there being an awful lot of fat to trim before the general public, at least in the west, really starts to feel the bite and realizes they are being eaten alive.

[SeaGypsy]

The term 'Cannibalistic Capitalism' is apt. It is exactly what it is. Why Ralphy chooses to waste keystrokes arguing otherwise I cannot comprehend. The term indicates a diversion from ideology as a matter of course. We all know there is not an infinite resource to support infinite growth; therefore a 'new' paradigm is/ was always going to emerge.

Last year we had another longwinded argument with Ralphy taking huge offence at folks here discussing the ramifications of peak oil as a form of entertainment. His thrust was effectively that unless one was in a mode of protest, political action, one had failed to grasp the subject matter. My argument (with others here) was that eventually we all seem to come to a point of realising the protest is futile. From there on in, you can take a position for or against whatever aspects of the world we live in, in light of awareness of impending energy downslope and this activity amounts to a form of 'entertainment'/ rather than 'political action'. This is more or less a repeat of that circular argument, basically about dialectic reconstruction of the language.

No doubt we are in for some very 'interesting times'.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peripato', 'S')o, it's just catabolic collapse? I mean, that's what this article is describing, right? Capitalism without growth ends in collapse. Dog eat dog until there are no more dogs left to eat equals collapse.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', '
')What is maximized is debt (of others), which is used as collateral for loans(to "capitalists") to be paid back with more debts (of others). This maximizes the use of energy and resources, as the only way to pay off debts is to be "productive" , i.e Do Your Part to facilitate the extraction, production, and consumption of resources.

I recommend heading over tohttp://www.economic-undertow.com/, an economic blog run by Steve Ludlum for an interesting and worthwhile take on whats really going on in the global economy. Currently he has a "1000 word essay" That explains his position quite clearly.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', '+')1

The confusion seems to arise by confusion between trade and capitalism. Trade takes place in any 'ism'.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'R')alphy thinks we are all either stupid or have never grokked peak oil.
There was once upon a time forms of capital which had zilch to do with money. I'm pretty sure most words to do with 'capital' come from the cattle trade; which has arguably gone on almost as long as the trade in women. A hell of a lot longer than money has been around.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', 'B')ut this is a truly minor quibble. like I mentioned earlier, the word "capitalism" gets thrown around a lot. What everyone seems to agree on is that "cannibalistic capitalism" is going to be the norm for an undefined period of time going forward, there being an awful lot of fat to trim before the general public, at least in the west, really starts to feel the bite and realizes they are being eaten alive.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'T')he term 'Cannibalistic Capitalism' is apt. It is exactly what it is. Why Ralphy chooses to waste keystrokes arguing otherwise I cannot comprehend. The term indicates a diversion from ideology as a matter of course. We all know there is not an infinite resource to support infinite growth; therefore a 'new' paradigm is/ was always going to emerge.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '
')Capitalism is nothing but an ability to own means of production. How something as simple as a right ( or an ability ) to own something as simple as a field , tree grove or a brewery can possibly collapse?

[SeaGypsy]

We can let others decide. I have decided you talk in circles and make presumptions galore about the views of others backed neither by fact or quote.
Maybe people aren't interested in reading long winded boring dialectic monologs?

[Pops]

Here's Ralphy's definition of capitalism without all the various pronouncements,
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralphy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'A')ll those arguments boil down to: "capitalism requires growth because capitalism produces growth.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's not just that. Rather, the profits are invested, which in turn lead to more production. That's it.

[davep]

You're not the only one. I posted the damned thing and can hardly remember what it says.

[davep]

Indeed. As opposed to anabolic. I don't like the use of the word in this context really. It's not very appropriate.