[evilgenius]

The biggest problem with capitalism is that it works very much the same way that Darwinian evolution does, attempting to survive by supplying the products that help it to adapt to market conditions. The problem with that is that the market is determined by what people want and need, not necessarily by world reality. What this produces is a lot of gas guzzling vehicles, for instance, because people don't see a looming gasoline shortage, even though it is coming. What people foresee, whether it be a housing boom with no end or abiotic oil is what drives the system, not cold hard reality. Add the efforts of cagey and highly learned marketing professionals into the mix and a cliff is likely to appear, over which the system will probably have gone well before the wants and needs of the people can adjust to what is really going on.

[The Practician]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'T')he biggest problem with capitalism is that it works very much the same way that Darwinian evolution does, attempting to survive by supplying the products that help it to adapt to market conditions. The problem with that is that the market is determined by what people want and need, not necessarily by world reality.

[rangerone314]

What do you call the kind of "comparative advantage" that stems from slave labor wages and not technological or procedural innovation?

A race to the bottom.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Verb: Become or make smaller in size or amount; contract or cause to contract.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'Y')ou sure use a lot of keystrokes to agree.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Practician', 'I') think there is a bit of confusion as to what capitalism, at least the capitalism we know and love, really is. It should be obvious by now that whatever you want to call our global economic system, it is a system designed for MAXIMIZING WASTE, not ACCUMULATING CAPITAL. Capitalism is a lie. It destroys capital and funnels the "profits" of this waste (debts of others) to the elites.

If we are going to call the system we have capitalism, I am afraid we will have to come up a different name for a system that actually does what capitalism claims it does.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', '&')quot;What we have here; is a faylyure too Commuunicayte"

There are very few real 'Capitalists'; many wanna be's. The Ponzi belief system is that we can all be rich if we scam hard enough. Basic failure in logic, pyramid scam. Without an infinite base to draw on there can be no 'infinite growth'. Thus we have actually neither. The system is designed to allow most people the perception that their life is getting better. Once you have maxed out your 'wastefulness'; your usefulness to the system is limited. Especially now with globalism, there is a massive supply of eager worker ants ready to work like our western ancestors did 100 years ago for a slice of the pie. Not much need for the first world middle class anymore, with all our high falutin expectations. Aspiration is cool, because the aspirant will gamble whatever wealth they have, or think they have, for a shot at joining the 'capitalists'.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'T')he biggest problem with capitalism is that it works very much the same way that Darwinian evolution does, attempting to survive by supplying the products that help it to adapt to market conditions. The problem with that is that the market is determined by what people want and need, not necessarily by world reality. What this produces is a lot of gas guzzling vehicles, for instance, because people don't see a looming gasoline shortage, even though it is coming. What people foresee, whether it be a housing boom with no end or abiotic oil is what drives the system, not cold hard reality. Add the efforts of cagey and highly learned marketing professionals into the mix and a cliff is likely to appear, over which the system will probably have gone well before the wants and needs of the people can adjust to what is really going on.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'B')ut if by that statement we mean most wanting to profit, then we cannot say the same, as a shrinking economy will mean less profits for more people, until there is very little left.

[Pops]

Just saw this, haven't read it yet
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2 ... ics-energy

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'H')ere from David Brooks: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he larger conflict began with the end of the cold war. That ideological dispute settled the argument over whether capitalism was the best economic system. But it did not settle the argument over whether democratic capitalism was the best political-social-economic system. Instead, it left the world divided into two general camps.

[Pops]

LOL, it makes no difference whether it was growing, the point is the direction is toward less free market and more resource nationalism, socialism and state capitalism.

I've not seen one argument that capitalism requires growth. Lots of stuff about capitalism being at the center of greed, gluttony, waste, pollution, etc. All of which I agree with, with the caveat that those are all inherent human traits enabled, not caused, by capitalism.

I'll ask again, if not capitalism then what?

I think capitalism will continue but the free market version will continue to lose out to state capitalism just as it has been simply because in a declining resources world the proles will demand it. The current power grab by the owners - actually it is a consolidation I suppose, financed not surprisingly by the bankers and resource extractors like the Kochs - is the clear evidence.

The utopian alternative I guess you'd call localized anarchist communism a la Trainer where everyone leads a voluntary simple life with none of the human frailties listed above.
‪http://socialsciences.arts.unsw.edu.au/ ... EM.All.htm‬
‪http://socialsciences.arts.unsw.edu.au/tsw/‬

[evilgenius]

My point about the markets being removed from cold hard reality and instead being based on the perceptions of the people involved was as if to say, "the love of money is the root of all evil." When a society en masse abandons civics and intergenerational integrity in favor of the here and now of its self-indulgent self-perceptions eventually it will reap what it sows. This isn't to say that we haven't learned a thing or two over the most recent stretch of history about man's humanity toward man, just that our exercise of it in the current environment seems a parody of ourselves rather than a serious implementation of concern or understanding. That is where the love of money takes us. We are so blinded by how each one of us might get rich quick that few of us as individuals can accept the developing reality of resource scarcity or climate change, never mind figure out what to do with all of those people who have suddenly appeared under every bridge and at every major intersection with those pesky cardboard signs.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'L')OL, it makes no difference whether it was growing, the point is the direction is toward less free market and more resource nationalism, socialism and state capitalism.

I've not seen one argument that capitalism requires growth. Lots of stuff about capitalism being at the center of greed, gluttony, waste, pollution, etc. All of which I agree with, with the caveat that those are all inherent human traits enabled, not caused, by capitalism.

I'll ask again, if not capitalism then what?

I think capitalism will continue but the free market version will continue to lose out to state capitalism just as it has been simply because in a declining resources world the proles will demand it. The current power grab by the owners - actually it is a consolidation I suppose, financed not surprisingly by the bankers and resource extractors like the Kochs - is the clear evidence.

The utopian alternative I guess you'd call localized anarchist communism a la Trainer where everyone leads a voluntary simple life with none of the human frailties listed above.
‪http://socialsciences.arts.unsw.edu.au/ ... EM.All.htm‬
‪http://socialsciences.arts.unsw.edu.au/tsw/‬

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '.')...those in financial power will take over the government.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I')t's already happened. Through the late 70's and 80's every significant economy in the world instituted some version of 'The Corporations Act'. It doesn't matter much which one you choose to read, because they are all fundamentally identical, dictated by the World Bank, International Development Fund and later the International Monetary Fund. This was the thin edge of the wedge of globalism and 'One World Government' is the ultimate objective.

[SeaGypsy]

I get headaches from circular arguments, sorry.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', 'I') get headaches from circular arguments, sorry.

[Pops]

I really am trying to find your argument Ralphy but you keep galloping around and winding up in the same place:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ralphy', 'C')apitalism requires growth because capital is ultimately used to increase production.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '
')
while depositors also preferred to use paper notes as it was too dangerous or cumbersome to bring gold around.