[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')n order to stay profitable through innovation, one innovates to cut costs, increase productivity, or both. The first leads to more profits without selling more, but those profits have to go somewhere. If they are invested in other companies, then those companies have to sell more in order to produce greater returns on investment. If they are re-invested in the business, then more will have to be produced, which is the second result of innovation.

[davep]

Capitalism itself does not require growth, but our fractional reserve economic system requires debt that is paid for by continual growth. Our economic system would eventually collapse without the growth required to pay the debt.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')n short, the end result is always increased productivity, which boils down to more sales in return for more profits. That is essentially what "profit" involves in the definition that you gave.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')n order to stay profitable through innovation, one innovates to cut costs, increase productivity, or both. The first leads to more profits without selling more, but those profits have to go somewhere. If they are invested in other companies, then those companies have to sell more in order to produce greater returns on investment. If they are re-invested in the business, then more will have to be produced, which is the second result of innovation.

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')n short, the end result is always increased productivity, which boils down to more sales in return for more profits. That is essentially what "profit" involves in the definition that you gave.

[Lore]

I believe the greater question should be, why should capitalism continue in a post-peak world? No better time to start over and end the catalyst for the very problem that got you into your current mess in the first place.

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I') believe the greater question should be, why should capitalism continue in a post-peak world? .

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I') believe the greater question should be, why should capitalism continue in a post-peak world? .

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I') believe the greater question should be, why should capitalism continue in a post-peak world? .

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'I') believe the greater question should be, why should capitalism continue in a post-peak world? .

[Quinny]

Sorry dsula but you've got it wrong. The current financial system grew out of Capitalism!

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'N')ow, in a shrinking economy, you and your competitor will make less profits each time (and even losses), but this does not help your argument at all, as you pointed out at the beginning that you expect to see at least the same profits given this condition.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'Y')ou measure time, you measure production and you calculate productivity. If you make 1000 screws per day you don't need to wait 1 year to compare your productivity.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')orry dsula but you've got it wrong. The current financial system grew out of Capitalism!

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'H')eh, no wonder I couldn't figure out what you were going on about.
I'm not arguing profits would be the same, only that there can be profit (so capitalism) without growth. I can't see where I wrote that, point it out to me if you would, please.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'e')specially the second paragraph, as well as the third, which implies that as we "transition to something else," we can maintain or even increase current production and consumption levels.

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')orry dsula but you've got it wrong. The current financial system grew out of Capitalism!

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'I')t's also best to be clear about what we mean by having profit without growth. If that means a few or one person profiting at the expense of others, then we can argue that there can be profit without growth.

[The Practician]

I think there is a bit of confusion as to what capitalism, at least the capitalism we know and love, really is. It should be obvious by now that whatever you want to call our global economic system, it is a system designed for MAXIMIZING WASTE, not ACCUMULATING CAPITAL. Capitalism is a lie. It destroys capital and funnels the "profits" of this waste (debts of others) to the elites.

If we are going to call the system we have capitalism, I am afraid we will have to come up a different name for a system that actually does what capitalism claims it does.

[SeaGypsy]

"What we have here; is a faylyure too Commuunicayte"

There are very few real 'Capitalists'; many wanna be's. The Ponzi belief system is that we can all be rich if we scam hard enough. Basic failure in logic, pyramid scam. Without an infinite base to draw on there can be no 'infinite growth'. Thus we have actually neither. The system is designed to allow most people the perception that their life is getting better. Once you have maxed out your 'wastefulness'; your usefulness to the system is limited. Especially now with globalism, there is a massive supply of eager worker ants ready to work like our western ancestors did 100 years ago for a slice of the pie. Not much need for the first world middle class anymore, with all our high falutin expectations. Aspiration is cool, because the aspirant will gamble whatever wealth they have, or think they have, for a shot at joining the 'capitalists'.