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I just had the hope knocked out of me

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 16:02:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')igh? Ruining 1 planet isn't good enough for you?


How about Mars? Did we ruin it in our ancient past?
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 16:10:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', ' ')My theological support group includes physicians, professors, ex military folks, marksmen, farmers, etc.

What does your group do? Do you support each other's theological beliefs? Isn't it a bit weak to have a support group to keep your faith?
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 17:04:49

Would you have a support group to destroy your faith?
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 18:03:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'M')e, I'm an optimist -- I think a lot of our problems will go away when we lose about 6 and a half billion people. All you have to do is be a better survivor than about 90 percent of the people you see around you.
Of course this is assuming we don't make the globe completely uninhabitable in the next 20 or 30 years.

To have a real effect the the 6.5 billion People gone, will have to be the rich ones, who use most of the resources,create most of the pollution and who have the highest expectations and the least survival skills.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 18:05:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'W')ould you have a support group to destroy your faith?


If i was a believer on the way toward recovering my mental health, yes, absolutely.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 18:29:37

So faith has caused you mental health problems?
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Heineken » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 18:43:56

Religion is one of the major reasons there is no hope for us. Ironic, isn't it.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 19:02:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'S')o faith has caused you mental health problems?


I had enough of mental health not to develop it in the first place. Would my mental health deteriorate if I was crazy enough to believe some BS ? I don't know, depends on BS and the way it is served I guess
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 19:13:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'M')e, I'm an optimist -- I think a lot of our problems will go away when we lose about 6 and a half billion people. All you have to do is be a better survivor than about 90 percent of the people you see around you.
Of course this is assuming we don't make the globe completely uninhabitable in the next 20 or 30 years.

To have a real effect the the 6.5 billion People gone, will have to be the rich ones, who use most of the resources,create most of the pollution and who have the highest expectations and the least survival skills.

well obviously the remaining 0.5 billion will not have their current ability to use resources and produce pollution, regardless of quantity of money or even gold/silver they can possibly have, so they will be poor by the current definition regardless of who they are now
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 15 Dec 2011, 19:21:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse3', 'I') just had the hope beat out of me.

When I became PO aware and went from being energy ignorant to energy aware, when the illusion of business as usual or "BAU" forever changed, when I realized there was no such thing as perpetual growth, that our monetary system and oil are inextricably linked, I immediately found myself isolated from everyone I knew stranded alone on an island of despair, scared at the prospect of a looming storm.

Like most of you here, once the illusion of a perpetual goldilocks future with retirement is dispelled, when you realize that BAU is not guaranteed, when you realize that everything you are accustomed to depends on how much oil the Arabs can pump out of the ground, and if they get in trouble, you are in trouble, you immediately start grabbing firewood and building a shelter to make yourself and life more resilent to outside forces, but even that cannot save you. This problem is far too big. Native Americans could live off the land, but our society can't. We killed off the millions of buffalo that fed a few hundred thousand natives. We replaced the buffalo with industrialism, So, it doesn't take long to realize that no matter how hard one tries, we are all in this together, for better or worse. The better is over, get ready for the worse.

Occasionally, on the horizon of future events, I would see glimmering lights of hope. Back in 2004, I thought that our government would act. I was optimistic that Rep Bartlett and others would actually get Congress to act on PO. Those days have long passed. Speeches and hearings led to nothing. Instead of doing anything to become energy independent, we just spend more money on wars in the ME. I accept that now, though, bc we can never be independent of oil. Wind and Solar will never replace it. It's taken years for me to realize this is a transportation fuel crisis. Our tractor trailer trucks will never be solar or wind powered. Our ships will never again be wind powered. So, the reality is we fight in the ME because that's all we can do, fight for the little that's left, make sure we get it and not our enemies. Despite what I may want to happen, the reality is that people will fight and kill for limited resources. So, if countries fight for oil, what will individuals do for it as it increasingly becomes more scarce, more valuable. Fight.

I then got caught up in the hype of NG. Former oilman Boone Pickens was leading the charge very strong back in 2008 to use NG to mitigate PO. Even said that exactly, but it never happened. Three years later, we still have 250 million cars on the road and only 114k use NG. All the the NG they pump out of the ground just gets put in storage tanks. We keep adding more to storage, decreasing prices making it less economical to drill, but all this NG doesn't get used for anything, not transportation anyway, which is the PO problem.

Also, according to some confidential emails released from Chesapeak Energy, it turns out that maybe NG isn't as plentiful as we thought, not as economical as we thought, but at any rate, even if it was both plentiful and economical, we aren't using it as a transportation fuel which means its PO hype. PO is a liquid fuels crisis, and until we use it to power trains, planes and automobiles, it does nothing to mitigate PO. As I said earlier, according to wiki, there are 250 million passenger cars in the US and only about 114k use NG. So, no hope there. Worldwide, there are only 12 million NG cars. Big deal.

Then, I asked myself, if US NG is the answer to PO, why are Pickens and the NG industry needing legislation to get it to happen? Why doesn't it happen based on its own economics? True capitalist always argue that government can't create solutions; energy people always say gov't needs to get out of the way and let them do there job, drill baybe drill; so if the capitalists and energy guys are right, why would the NG industry need legislation to make this NG panacea happen? The fact they need government intervention tells me, the layman, that it won't work based on the economics. Call it EROI or whatever you want to call it, if it takes legislation to make it work, its not economical on its own merits. So, that means its not a good mitigator. It just shows how complicated our system is, how entrenched the oil is into our system, how nothing we know of can replace the crude which literally and figuratively greases the skids of everything we know and do, and and how difficult to transition off of it. It means that NG isn't the answer. It is hype.

Last, there is always "demand destruction" which is economic speak for recession or depression to mitigate PO. Well, how is that any consolation for the working stiffs? Its not. Go tell the Arab Spring, OWS, the Greeks, Italians anyone that the answer is more demand destruction and see how well that goes over. They haven't liked it so far.

Not only is demand destruction politically unpalatable, it apparently doesn't work to keep the price of oil down. The scary thing is, even in a week economy, the price of oil is rising again. It did crash in 2008 going from $145 down to $30, but its now back up to about $100 again. Ouch. Its going up but the economy isn't growing, and that's not a good sign. That's not demand destruction. Why is that happening? Who knows, but it means the classic view of "demand destruction" doesn't necessarily mean the oil price will go down. But this is no surprise to the PO aware, who believe the price of oil will hold or go up as oil becomes more scarce. How much was oil worth in the fictional movie Mad Max? Maybe that wasn't economic fiction. Another big bout of recession in Europe might crush the price of oil temporarily, but everyone in the oil industry says it takes about $70 a barrel to get the oil out of the ground, so this isn't good.

I don't know what the answer is to BAU for our economy, meaning growth. But it takes oil to get growth bc it takes oil to make stuff and transport it. So, maybe there is oil somewhere in the artic where we aren't drilling yet, but that's years away and billions of dollars to get at it, and I'm not sure the world can handle another six years or so of no growth. The system isn't holding up now.



Finally back to the topic : I personally will have the hope knocked out of me, when a realistic alternative energy source will be found. Till then, I rejoice my popcorn and the show.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Fri 16 Dec 2011, 01:23:56

Every time the Dudes in the big trucks pass me on the highway when I'm doing 80mph in my nissan altima I feel the hope being knocked out of me... it happens daily.... I mean every few hours.... All I can figure is that everyone on the highway except for me is rich...
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Fri 16 Dec 2011, 16:11:30

I refuse to believe that Earth will not keep providing us with it's plentiful abundance. Cheap water, air, fossil fuels, uranium and soil!
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Fri 16 Dec 2011, 18:26:20

Yes I'd like to see all the volunteers for self wisdom teeth extraction.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby cephalotus » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 05:56:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse3', 'I') accept that now, though, bc we can never be independent of oil. Wind and Solar will never replace it. It's taken years for me to realize this is a transportation fuel crisis. Our tractor trailer trucks will never be solar or wind powered.


You can use oil form biomass or methane made from electricity. The technology is already here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Our ships will never again be wind powered.


You can use electric powered trains instead, when possible. (i.e. from China to Europe)
Ships can also run on biomass, coal, liquid methane, liquid hydrogen, additional wind power (skysail) and in some cases also on nuclear power.

Peak oil is a commuters problem and a problem for those burning 3000l of oil per year for heating the house and it is a problem for airlines. It is NOT a problem for trucks, tractors or ships in general... Those can easily pay for oil even at 1.000US$/barrel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') So, the reality is we fight in the ME because that's all we can do, fight for the little that's left, make sure we get it and not our enemies. Despite what I may want to happen, the reality is that people will fight and kill for limited resources.


Currently this is the American way but it doesn't work so well, does it. What have you paid for the Irak war and what have you gained. For the same amount of money you could have been now the leading producer of solar power and electric cars in the world by a far margin and could sell this to China & Co. You could have millions of new jobs.
Instead you bombed Iraq into a failed state...

I fail to understand the logic behind this.

If you would have access to all of the Iraq oil, it maybe would make maybe little sense compared to the solar + e-cars + million new industry jobs scenario, but you do not even have this...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')So, if countries fight for oil, what will individuals do for it as it increasingly becomes more scarce, more valuable. Fight.


Why? I do not use oil for commuting, I do not use oil for heating and for the little that is left I have no problem to pay 1.000US$/barrel. Maybe at 1.000US$/barrel price of food will increase by 20%, maybe even 30%. So what? I don't care. I already buy mostly "organic food" which is more expensive than 20-30%+ on conventional food.
At 1.000US$/barrel it would be possible to make our own synthetic oil from wind power through electrolysis and Fischer-Tropsch technologies.
(if you don't care for CO2 emissions, we will make our own oil from lignite at around 200US$/barrel, which I would also prefer against fighting for oil)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I then got caught up in the hype of NG. Former oilman Boone Pickens was leading the charge very strong back in 2008 to use NG to mitigate PO. Even said that exactly, but it never happened. Three years later, we still have 250 million cars on the road and only 114k use NG. All the the NG they pump out of the ground just gets put in storage tanks. We keep adding more to storage, decreasing prices making it less economical to drill, but all this NG doesn't get used for anything, not transportation anyway, which is the PO problem.


At 4 US$/gal oil is way to cheap to be repalaced by alternatives.

Wait for 20 US/$gal and you will soon see those alternatives become available.

...
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pops » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 09:59:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cephalotus', 'W')ait for 20 US/$gal and you will soon see those alternatives become available.

...


At $20/gal equivalent what difference does it make if it enables flying carpets or Mr Fusion? The current system can't run on the equivalent of $20/gallon - that's the whole point of peak oil.

Peakers say "PO causes expensive energy" and people respond "yeah but given enough money we'll find more energy" - ?

That's not a solution, that's the problem :!:

Here at $4/gallon the economy is sputtering but you feel pretty smug that you can buy expensive food and wouldn't even notice if the price increases to $20/gallon. Your blind spot is that you think the prices rise but somehow you will still have your income. Obviously I have no idea where your income originates but it is pretty obvious that high oil prices reduce real GDP (if not the financial 3 Card Monte type) and that equates to jobs.

Interesting if not necessarily authoritative widget...
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby cephalotus » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 10:24:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
At $20/gal equivalent what difference does it make if it enables flying carpets or Mr Fusion? The current system can't run on the equivalent of $20/gallon - that's the whole point of peak oil.


I'm sure the system will look quite similar to today and not like apocalypse at 20US$/gal

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Here at $4/gallon the economy is sputtering but you feel pretty smug that you can buy expensive food and wouldn't even notice if the price increases to $20/gallon. Your blind spot is that you think the prices rise but somehow you will still have your income. Obviously I have no idea where your income originates but it is pretty obvious that high oil prices reduce real GDP (if not the financial 3 Card Monte type) and that equates to jobs.


If you look at the world economies there is NO correlation between gas prices for consumers and the GDP. Some of the nations with very high gas prices have one of the highest GDP/capita.

regards...
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby Pops » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 12:22:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cephalotus', 'I')f you look at the world economies there is NO correlation between gas prices for consumers and the GDP.

Don't be silly. Take a look at this:

Image

At $7/gallon the impact on the average US household would be an additional cost of $5k/yr or 10% of median income, at $20/gal transportation would be 50% of the average budget.

You really think that would have no impact on the economy?
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 12:23:39

$7/gallon- It would crush us.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby davep » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 13:25:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '$')7/gallon- It would crush us.


It hasn't crushed Germany or Switzerland.
What we think, we become.
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Re: I just had the hope knocked out of me

Unread postby MD » Sat 17 Dec 2011, 13:36:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '$')7/gallon- It would crush us.


It hasn't crushed Germany or Switzerland.


They're accustomed to it. A sudden rise to $7 here would be very disruptive.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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