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Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 29 May 2005, 20:19:19

I will be short: Thank you for voting NON! You made Europe stronger by doing so.
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 29 May 2005, 20:30:28

I'm glad to see we agree on something, Lorenzo!

Thank you, France, for a wise vote!
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Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 29 May 2005, 20:46:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'I')'m glad to see we agree on something, Lorenzo!

Thank you, France, for a wise vote!


Well, we agree, but I strongly suspect our agreement is based on very different grounds. :-D

Anyway, I'm a proud European today.
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Unread postby Barbara » Mon 30 May 2005, 03:39:29

I'm a proud Zooropian too, Lorenzo!
Hope those capitalists will understand the french advice! ;)
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 05:44:04

Yes, it will be "stronger", I cant wait for my country or Poland to block ANYthing at will, because there is no majority voting..
But people will realize it, once countries like cyprus block some important decision..

This has made EU very weak, and decision making will remain untransparent..
New rights proposed by constitution also go to hell.. really thx to all people who didnt even read it and decided to vote "no" after few months of media massage or for reasons that are simply not true..
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Unread postby khebab » Mon 30 May 2005, 08:27:15

I'm happy too, it's time to take a break and think about what Europe really means.
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 10:03:51

Khebab and Jack, did you read the treaty?
Why do you welcome this result, it doesnt affect you much ..
It only means politically weaker europe and temporary weaker euro, first is positive for other countries, second not..

For citizens here or how EU works this means nothing.. status quo .. inefficient burocratic EU..

But I wonder what will happen next, whether we will continue ratifiing treaty or not. If more than 5 countries don't accept it, it wil be back to council to do something ..
It's also possible that Germany and France with other core countries will continue unification without treaty about constitution and without other countries
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Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 30 May 2005, 10:14:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', 'I')'m a proud Zooropian too, Lorenzo!
Hope those capitalists will understand the french advice! ;)


Exactly! That's what it's all about.

NON against an ultra-liberal free market capitalism where the few benefit and the masses live in misery (like in the US)

OUI to a more social Europe, which preserves the world's best health care system, social system and educational system.

It's as simple as that.
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Unread postby khebab » Mon 30 May 2005, 10:36:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'K')hebab and Jack, did you read the treaty?
Why do you welcome this result, it doesnt affect you much ..

Well, I'm French so yes this result affects me. I don't think they did a good job on the new consitution:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Economist', 'L')ast year The Economist lamented the draft treaty as an opportunity missed: to simplify the hotch-potch of arrangements governing the European Union; to present a shorter constitution that would be easily intelligible to the layman; and, above all, to clarify and settle the balance of powers between the centre and member governments. It is in this last area that the constitution's provisions need most strengthening.


It's a complex issue but many in France are opposed to Turkish membership of the EU, and there is a false impression that the constitution leads inevitably to this. This is clearly an identity crisis, Europe has expanded too much and too fast. The "yes" campaign was mainly based on fear of what will happen if the constitution is rejected.
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 10:40:23

Well, it's sad day then.. If people are basing their decisions on fear or false information (Turkey membership has nothing to do at all with treaty) tben it's sad day for "democracy"..
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Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 30 May 2005, 10:44:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'W')ell, it's sad day then.. If people are basing their decisions on fear or false information (Turkey membership has nothing to do at all with treaty) tben it's sad day for "democracy"..


That's not false information or fear. The French people took this chance to express themselves on a whole range of matters. The forced and rapid enlargement was not a good thing, and was decided undemocratically.
Those who pushed this through are now being punished by a majority of French (and I dare say, Europeans in general).

Moreover, if you read the Chapter on economics, you'll notice that the Constitution is basically a treaty to turn the EU into one big American free trade zone. People don't want this. They want to preserve the social system which makes Europe the best place on the planet to live.
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Unread postby Jack » Mon 30 May 2005, 12:57:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'K')hebab and Jack, did you read the treaty?
Why do you welcome this result, it doesnt affect you much ..
It only means politically weaker europe and temporary weaker euro, first is positive for other countries, second not..


This may come as a surprise to you....

I am, unabashedly, pro-American on most issues. That being said, I have deep reservations regarding the present trends toward globalization. I am a proponent of national sovereignty.

So anything that stands in the way of globalization is desirable. That includes rejection of CAFTA by the US and the present NON vote by France.
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 13:19:34

Lorenzo, regarding trade, there is nothing that isnt law already.. There was simply nothing new regarding trade, its already all in various treaties..

And enlargement? Constitution has nothing to do with it, except that it defines rules how can countries join and leave EU. Now there are no such rules, so it's completely out of control :-)

And enlargement wasnt rapid .. those 10 countries that joined were working 15 years to be compatible with EU law and organization. It was 15 years of waiting and hard work..
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Unread postby Wildwell » Mon 30 May 2005, 13:22:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')OUI to a more social Europe, which preserves the world's best health care system, social system and educational system.

It's as simple as that.


All paid for by the Germans (who have suffered like hell from the influx of cheap Euro labour), the Brits and the French....Funny how small countries are keen on it?

Anyway I thought you'd like this Lorenzo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4538249.stm
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 13:55:24

I think that social policy should be up to member states, and not in constitution..

And Wildwell, how does country "suffer" from cheap labor? It helps economy, helps exports.. I live in one of "new" countries - Czech rep. - we have hundreds of thousands workers from Ukraine and former soviet union who are doing work that nobody wants to do (yet people still whine and dont like them), and tens of thousands are working in USA or in UK (not so easy to work in Germany or France!) and they are whinned upon :-)

But when I want my house built cheaply, I'm glad workers are from Ukraine and cost 1/2 less than local labor...

And regarding employment? Well it didnt change employment - they are simply filling undesirable places..
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Unread postby Jack » Mon 30 May 2005, 14:05:18

Ahh, but Licho - in essence you are repeating that profoundly American call for "Lower prices for consumers."

What people generally forget is that lower prices for consumers will surely result in lower wages for producers.
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Unread postby Licho » Mon 30 May 2005, 14:09:52

They will result in greater eficiency :-)
Besides minimum wage is set in almost all countries, including EU countries - so what's the deal? And those foreigners dont even work at minimal wage..
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Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 30 May 2005, 14:28:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'L')orenzo, regarding trade, there is nothing that isnt law already.. There was simply nothing new regarding trade, its already all in various treaties..


That's true. But the NON is a non against globalization and neoliberalism in general. As it stands, the EU is a free market capitalist system with social corrections. Nothing new here.

But the social corrections are important, they set us apart from such miserable consumer slave jungles like the USA, where millions of people live in pure misery.

Europe has a fantastic and unique tradition of social negotiations, between the government, the employers and the employees. Nowhere else do you find this institutionalized trialogue.

And the EU Constitution wants to destroy this tradition. It wants to wage war against the people and against the unions, so that the corporations get a free ride. Thank God, the French rejected it.

Those who don't like Europe's great tradition of creating prosperity for all, should move to the USA, or to China.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'A')nd enlargement? Constitution has nothing to do with it, except that it defines rules how can countries join and leave EU. Now there are no such rules, so it's completely out of control :-)


Again, it was not about enlargement, but about the democratic deficit in decision making. Europeans were not asked if they wanted to enlarge so rapidly and so thoroughly.
It's this democratic deficit which is boomeranged back to the YES camp now.

The Eurocrats should have taken Mitterands call more seriously, when he said that we must first "live in the building for a while, before putting new floors on top of it".

I'm very glad that our Eastern European friends joined in. But we must now stop, and think what we really want. It's as if the integration process keeps integrating purely for integrations' sake, while nobody's asking: where do we really want to go.

And now, for the first time, that debate has been opened, by the French.
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Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 30 May 2005, 14:33:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'I') think that social policy should be up to member states, and not in constitution..


That's exactly why the French rejected it.
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Unread postby lorenzo » Mon 30 May 2005, 14:36:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')Anyway I thought you'd like this Lorenzo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4538249.stm


Yes, I know this article.

It points perfectly to the reasons why the NON was victorious.

Take health care. Do we want health care for all? Or do we want an American system where only the wealthy can afford it, so that the poor stay poor and in bad health and can be recruited to slave for €1 an hour?

It's obvious that Europeans will never allow the destruction of their fantastic health, social and educational systems.
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