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Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Poll ended at Tue 19 Jan 2010, 21:37:29

Q1 2010
6
No votes
Q2 2010
18
No votes
Q3 2010
17
No votes
Q4 2010
3
No votes
Q1 2011
5
No votes
Q2 2011
3
No votes
Q3 2011
3
No votes
Q4 2011
1
No votes
Q1 2012
0
0%
Q2 2012
1
No votes
Q3 2012
0
0%
Q4 2012
3
No votes
Never - there won´t be a second wave, the world will slowly recover
4
No votes
 
Total votes : 64

Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 17 Oct 2011, 12:30:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GoIllini', '
')It's come down to 18 million/day over the past five years. Poorer Americans have been conserving priced out of excess consumption. Meanwhile production has increased. So we are in better shape than five years ago.


Rationing by price is alive and well.
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby GoIllini » Mon 17 Oct 2011, 13:19:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolanbaker', 'R')ationing by price is alive and well.

Bingo, the free market (Some here might say Darwin and Malthus) is helping us make the slow adjustment. That does not mean societal upheaval.
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 17 Oct 2011, 19:53:56

Gradual is only gradual until a tipping point is reached or a black swan occurs. Then it is not gradual anymore.
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Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby GoIllini » Mon 17 Oct 2011, 20:03:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'G')radual is only gradual until a tipping point is reached or a black swan occurs. Then it is not gradual anymore.

Mmmm, it depends on how sharp you think the J needs to be. I think our J-curve topping out was 2008 and we are in a slow decline back to our carrying capacity in terms of Population x Affluence. That was our tipping point, IMHO, and we are now seeing the decline back to carrying capacity in terms of lifestyles and perhaps population.


Others may disagree with me. Maybe this will end in a revolution or nuclear war. I suspect the capitalists will win the revolution since they control ~80% of the capital and 55% of the voting population went for the Tea Party in the last election. In the event of a nuclear war, well, that's why the southern hemisphere doesn't have any nuclear states. They would likely not be targeted and would not see much exposure to strontium and cesium given how the atmosphere circulates.
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby Loki » Tue 18 Oct 2011, 01:16:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GoIllini', 'L')et's assume the doomer scenario- a global nuclear war in the Northern hemisphere between Russia, China, and the US. We can all go down to Argentina, New Zealand, or (now nuke-free) South Africa and enjoy some paragliding and diving.

You make a good case for why we need confiscatory taxes on the assets of the rich, who have clearly lost all sense of civic virtue.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are no true Malthusians running for president, but a Libertarian will at least help us readjust our expectations about the future and prepare us socially.

I'm not sure how redistributing wealth even further upwards will help the average American prepare for our uncertain future. And turning a blind eye to climate change is just plain suicidal.

But if you mean libertarian policies will accelerate economic and ecological collapse, then yes, I agree, they have.
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby GoIllini » Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:02:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'Y')ou make a good case for why we need confiscatory taxes on the assets of the rich, who have clearly lost all sense of civic virtue.

LOL, sounds like someone's pissed that folks are starting to transcend his gloom and doom! OMG, what a change, somebody on this forum is not completely depressed and scared around here about the worst case! :mrgreen:

Folks hoping and praying that all of the rich people will suffer and they will be the last lone survivor in their bomb shelter are going to be sorely, sadly mistaken.

Seriously, there's always a silver lining when you prepare. And folks with politics like yours' are the reason anyone with half a brain keeps a good portion of their wealth out of the country.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not sure how redistributing wealth even further upwards will help the average American prepare for our uncertain future. And turning a blind eye to climate change is just plain suicidal.

Hardly. China and India are going to go underwater and will need more food. Global warming is going to make a number of midwestern middle-class farmers rich, since they represent the world's largest grain export market. (Contary to popular belief, corporations cannot own cropland in most states. The land is mostly held by grandpas who've gotten out of the farming business and LEASED to corporations on a short-term basis.)

As for stopping the redistribution of wealth, that is the whole point of libertarianism. The liberals in government should not be bailing out corporations and wall street with middle-class taxpayer money. Neocons and liberals will bail out wall street; libertarians are the only ones who will let them fail.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut if you mean libertarian policies will accelerate economic and ecological collapse, then yes, I agree, they have.

Keynesian policies boost consumption and accelerate ecological collapse even more. Given the choice between Austrian school vs. the Keynesian school, I'll pick the school that isn't giving middle-class families and retired people lots of gasoline.
Last edited by GoIllini on Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:14:58, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 18 Oct 2011, 10:09:08

Very Strange?
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 03 Nov 2011, 04:19:05

"12 Reasons To Be Extremely Pessimistic About The Direction That The Economy Is Headed"

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archiv ... -is-headed
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby eXpat » Sun 27 Nov 2011, 08:44:49

$707,568,901,000,000: How (And Why) Banks Increased Total Outstanding Derivatives By A Record $107 Trillion In 6 Months
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile everyone was focused on the impending European collapse, the latest soon to be refuted rumors of a quick fix from the Welt am Sonntag notwithstanding, the Bank of International Settlements reported a number that quietly slipped through the cracks of the broader media. Which is paradoxical because it is the biggest ever reported in the financial world: the number in question is $707,568,901,000,000 and represents the latest total amount of all notional Over The Counter (read unregulated) outstanding derivatives reported by the world's financial institutions to the BIS for its semi-annual OTC derivatives report titled "OTC derivatives market activity in the first half of 2011." Indicatively, global GDP is about $63 trillion if one can trust any numbers released by modern governments. Said otherwise, for the six month period ended June 30, 2011, the total number of outstanding derivatives surged past the previous all time high of $673 trillion from June 2008, and is now firmly in 7-handle territory: the synthetic credit bubble has now been blown to a new all time high. Another way of looking at the data is that one of the key contributors to global growth and prosperity in the past 10 years was an increase in total derivatives from just under $100 trillion to $708 trillion in exactly one decade. And soon we have to pay the mean reversion price.

What is probably just as disturbing is that in the first 6 months of 2011, the total outstanding notional of all derivatives rose from $601 trillion at December 31, 2010 to $708 trillion at June 30, 2011. A $107 trillion increase in notional in half a year. Needless to say this is the biggest increase in history. So why did the notional increase by such an incomprehensible amount? Simple: based on some widely accepted (and very much wrong) definitions of gross market value (not to be confused with gross notional), the value of outstanding derivatives actually declined in the first half of the year from $21.3 trillion to $19.5 trillion (a number still 33% greater than US GDP). Which means that in order to satisfy what likely threatened to become a self-feeding margin call as the (previously) $600 trillion derivatives market collapsed on itself, banks had to sell more, more, more derivatives in order to collect recurring and/or upfront premia and to pad their books with GAAP-endorsed delusions of [url][/url]future derivative based cash flows. Because derivatives in addition to a core source of trading desk P&L courtesy of wide bid/ask spreads (there is a reason banks want to keep them OTC and thus off standardization and margin-destroying exchanges) are also terrific annuities for the status quo. Just ask Buffett why he sold a multi-billion index put on the US stock market. The answer is simple - if he ever has to make good on it, it is too late.

Which brings us to the the chart showing total outstanding notional derivatives by 6 month period below. The shaded area is what that the BIS, the bank regulators, and the OCC urgently hope that the general public promptly forgets about and brushes under the carpet.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/707568901000000-how-and-why-banks-increased-total-outstanding-derivatives-record-107-trillion-6
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Re: Second Wave in the worldwide economic crisis

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sun 27 Nov 2011, 09:34:44

Here in Florida it is evident to me that we are running two economies. Here in the center part of the state the very best jobs to be had are with local government. The poor are just hanging on. Construction is dead; the subdivisions are littered with unfinished houses left over from the boom. The thirty somethings are moving back in with their parents. In the Coach Outlet in Orlando, it is wall to wall with women buying $300, purses for $150 and thinking they have got a good deal. I know my wife bought two of them for Christmas gifts. Traffic is thick in Tampa. Here in the sticks black Friday was thin. There were no fights for Chinese trinkets.
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