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Crisis of capitalism

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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby americandream » Thu 25 Aug 2011, 23:10:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peeker01', 'F')rom Wikipedia:

"Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, usually in competitive markets.[1] Income in a capitalist system takes at least two forms, profit on the one hand and wages on the other. There is also a tradition that treats rent, income from the control of natural resources, as a third phenomenon distinct from either of those. In any case, profit is what is received, by virtue of control of the tools of production, by those who provide the capital."


AD may want to make that distinction, but Wikipedia doesn't.


My emphasis above. Make Wikipedia your friend, by all means:

Wikipedia's opening comments as regards "capital accumulation" are as follows:

[i]The accumulation of capital refers to the gathering or amassment of objects of value; the increase in wealth through concentration; or the creation of wealth. Capital is money or a financial asset invested for the purpose of making more money (whether in the form of profit, rent, interest, royalties, capital gain or some other kind of return).[1] This activity forms the basis of the economic system of capitalism, where economic activity is structured around the accumulation of capital (investment in production in order to realize a financial profit)............

It states elsewhere under "Definition:

The definition of capital accumulation is subject to controversy and ambiguities, because it could refer to a net addition to existing wealth, or to a redistribution of wealth. If more wealth is produced than there was before, a society becomes richer; the total stock of wealth increases. But if some accumulate capital only at the expense of others, wealth is merely shifted from A to B. In principle, it is possible that a few people or organisations accumulate capital and grow richer, although the total stock of wealth of society decreases.But it should be noticed that capital may increase by increasing the total wealth of society but few people grow richer while most of the people grow comparatively poorer. That is actually the tendency of the capital accumulation discovered by Marx.[2] Most often, capital accumulation involves both a net addition and a redistribution of wealth, which may raise the question of who really benefits from it most.
[/i]

And to all mercantilists. No, you cannot undo capitalism in a bid to reverse it's natural trajectory, back to some mercantilist era. Mercantilism is one sub-stage in the socio-economic development of mankind (of which capitalism is one stage) just as Nazism is, repulsive as it may be to some (or the US Civil War...a very important juncture in the switch from feudalism in the West to the early stages of a nascent internationalism (capitalism). Mercantilism and fascism are akin to the infancy and child years of capitalist expansion (in that order) as capitalism is marked by an initial parochialism and then aggressive expansionism (by the means of wars) before it settles down into its mid aged assimilative tendencies (when oppositon to its globalist face is either vanquised or evaporates.) The later and final stages of course, are the convergence of it's tendencies in a massive climax of contradictions....dialecticism in action.

I shan't be in for a while. Busy with a number of issues, not the least of which is plundering the capitalist markets. So, these should help clear up a few confused conservative mind...for a while hopefully.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 00:19:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '.').. (or the US Civil War...a very important juncture in the switch from feudalism in the West to the early stages of a nascent internationalism (capitalism)...

I see someone read The Political Economy of Slavery by Eugene D. Genovese.
When the banksters want something, our policymakers move with the speed of Mercury and the determination of Ares. It’s only when the rest of us need something that there is paralysis.

How free are we today with the dominance of globalist capital and militarized security apparatus?
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Quinny » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 01:38:50

Sorry I've been away and missed much of the live debate.

Agree with AD's analysis in general, but can any one explain how the system will cope with the over $200 trillion derivatives exposure carried by US banks. I realise some of these are a zero sum, but even a small percentage coming home to roost will make 2008 look like a stroll in the park.

IMHO the capitalist system has developed the derivatives game in an effort to still turn a profit despite physical resource limitations (epecifically PO). This is unsustainable (sic) in economic terms ie the divorce between real wealth and profit and the financial system can't continue. Someone at sometime calls the emprors clothes for what they are and paper becomes worthless.

The current banking system needs the profit to carry on so the worthless paper/digital asset cause it to implode. Don't see how this can carry on for 25 more years.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby americandream » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 04:11:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')orry I've been away and missed much of the live debate.

Agree with AD's analysis in general, but can any one explain how the system will cope with the over $200 trillion derivatives exposure carried by US banks. I realise some of these are a zero sum, but even a small percentage coming home to roost will make 2008 look like a stroll in the park.

IMHO the capitalist system has developed the derivatives game in an effort to still turn a profit despite physical resource limitations (epecifically PO). This is unsustainable (sic) in economic terms ie the divorce between real wealth and profit and the financial system can't continue. Someone at sometime calls the emprors clothes for what they are and paper becomes worthless.

The current banking system needs the profit to carry on so the worthless paper/digital asset cause it to implode. Don't see how this can carry on for 25 more years.


Was busy but looked in and had to reply to this.

The West has been stripped of value (and that is largely Europe and the US) at premium Cold War wages. That will go....vast bulk of humanity is still low cost surplus and there will be a balancing out at an optimal unit labour value. The process will be a gradual, imperceptible worsening for the lot of labour worldwide. There are 4 billion as yet potential consumers and workers worldwide so this will happen.

Quantity rather than quality. 3 million computers at $100 rather than 1 million at $500. The capitalist will resort to anything to preserve his margins until it is absolutely clear to all (for example, when the oil spigots start to sputter and gurgle in ways that we see Washington having to take direct control of it from the Saudis and labour worldwide being exhorted to be creative in order to be responsible citizens (with the accompanying legalisation of drugs, prostitution, child labour, removal of minimum wage laws, a turn to proactive rather than reactive health for workers productivity, the loosening of credit, fall in consumer goods standards...the list is endless) that the games up. There is still lots of juice in this machine. It's going to be a fine balancing between paying ones workers as little as can be paid to sustain them as consumers in drawing out the surplus they have created. Mechanisation will work for as long oil is cheap and then, it will be a return to good old muscle power.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 05:43:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'B')ut even though profiting from the mere fact the economy is growing will end and widespread accumulation of ever larger amounts of capital as well, profiting from private ownership and labor require neither and so will continue in some form.


No it won't. It will only last as long as people accept your claim to ownership of your property, and there are those that you can call to come defend your claims.

When it no longer is advantageous to the workers to work, when you can no longer provide something of value to them, they will leave.

Or maybe kill you for percieved past transgressions.

Private ownership ceases the moment they stop recognizing your claims and you can no longer defend your claims.

Claims to private property are the first thing to go. You own what you can hold on to.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 06:18:21

Private ownership/ posession of actual property actually, gives a better rampart than can be easily carried in a backpack or dug with a spade. When you get a neighborhood together in self defense it is far easier to keep it secure than trying to go it alone after everyone in the street has been starved out in a siege.

Whilst such social experiments are not permitted in the developed world, I have one city here in the Philippines reduce it's crime rate by about 95%, simply by point blank execution of criminals in extrajudicial policing. The place is Davao for anyone interested in googling it.

Cid you seem to be on a perpetual heavy downer these days, and it's not all about the weather. In this case it seems you are just arguing for the sake of doing so.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 10:16:48

I also think there is a lot of fat to spin off, we are only now starting to feel price rationing of oil, the western wage earner is only now seeing his "accumulation" shrinking after decades of stagnant income and credit consumption, we are only a couple decades into real automation.

The idea that capitalism will turn to speculation more and more to find a profit as markets mature*, seems to fit well. In my situation I'm not that concerned with what happens to that "froth" - although of course I'd rather see it settle slowly rather than explode like a soda pop volcano.

And you're right Cid, none of it means anything without private property rights, but to be honest total anarchy is so far down my 'threat matrix' (love that) it really isn't on my radar at all.



- btw, I found Capital by Marx here thanks AD
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 15:24:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'A')s for consumption-- of course you are right, there are plenty of calories to go around and it will be the case for awhile. Nevertheless it does not mean that you are entitled to be fed if you fail to feed yourself and your spawn. So, when I feed that corn and oats and soy to pigs I have meat, what do I have when I feed all that to bloated African families? More bloated African families. No, it's time to pay the piper. Thanks for the offer anyway.
Bloated African families? It was capitalism's insatiable hunger for growth that lead to the imperialistic exploitation of Africa, directly resulting in the poverty you see today. And Europe is more densely populated that Africa is. The pillaging of Africa has resulted in vast transfers of wealth from Africa to Europe and North America. You can't just heap all of the blame for Africa's poverty and starvation on it's inhabitants when you sit there enjoying the fruits of that massive transfer of wealth. Africa today would be a prosperous continent if it had not suffered under capitalism's centuries of imperialism.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') central imperative of capitalism is expansion. Investors will not put their money into business ventures unless they can extract more than they invest. Increased earnings come only with a growth in the enterprise. The capitalist ceaselessly searches for ways of making more money in order to make still more money. One must always invest to realize profits, gathering as much strength as possible in the face of competing forces and unpredictable markets. Given its expansionist nature, capitalism has little inclination to stay home. Almost 150 years ago, Marx and Engels described a bourgeoisie that "chases over the whole surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere. . . . It creates a world after its own image." The expansionists destroy whole societies. Self-sufficient peoples are forcibly transformed into disfranchised wage workers. Indigenous communities and folk cultures are replaced by mass-market, mass-media, consumer societies. Cooperative lands are supplanted by agribusiness factory farms, villages by desolate shanty towns, autonomous regions by centralized autocracies. North American and European corporations have acquired control of more than three-fourths of the known mineral resources of Asia, Africa, and Latin America. But the pursuit of natural resources is not the only reason for capitalist overseas expansion.

The impoverished lands of Asia, Africa, and Latin America are known to us as the "Third World," to distinguish them from the "First World" of industrialized Europe and North America and the now largely defunct "Second World" of communist states. Third World poverty, called "underdevelopment," is treated by most Western observers as an original historic condition. We are asked to believe that it always existed, that poor countries are poor because their lands have always been infertile or their people unproductive. In fact, the lands of Asia, Africa, and Latin America have long produced great treasures of foods, minerals and other natural resources. That is why the Europeans went through all the trouble to steal and plunder them. One does not go to poor places for self-enrichment. The Third World is rich. Only its people are poor—and it is because of the pillage they have endured.

The process of expropriating the natural resources of the Third World began centuries ago and continues to this day. First, the colonizers extracted gold, silver, furs, silks, and spices, then flax, hemp, timber, molasses, sugar, rum, rubber, tobacco, calico, cocoa, coffee, cotton, copper, coal, palm oil, tin, iron, ivory, ebony, and later on, oil, zinc, manganese, mercury, platinum, cobalt, bauxite, aluminum, and uranium. Not to be overlooked is that most hellish of all expropriations: the abduction of millions of human beings into slave labor.

Through the centuries of colonization, many self-serving imperialist theories have been spun. I was taught in school that people in tropical lands are slothful and do not work as hard as we denizens of the temperate zone. In fact, the inhabitants of warm climates have performed remarkably productive feats, building magnificent civilizations well before Europe emerged from the Dark Ages. And today they often work long, hard hours for meager sums. Yet the early stereotype of the "lazy native" is still with us. In every capitalist society, the poor—both domestic and overseas—regularly are blamed for their own condition.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby peeker01 » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 20:52:19

Cry me a river! How many more 100 year blocks of time are going to go by before that isn't
a good excuse anymore. My grandfather arrived in the US from Italy in 1904 with a third grade education, speaking no English. He worked his ass off for 70 years, and never took a dime from
the government. Died quite well off in 1990. No education, but a strong work ethic.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 21:19:11

So pillaging a continent for centuries and driving the natives into poverty and starvation is "an excuse". My bad. Obviously I am wrong and you are correct. The real reason for their poverty must be because they are all lazy shiftless bums. If only they had the work ethic of your grandfather, all would be good. But alas, what can you expect from those mindless savages?

We should also ignore the ongoing exploitation that continues to this day. After all, as long as actual slavery is abolished, we shouldn't really care that we screw over entire continents of people in other unscrupulous ways.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')mperialism is the primary function of capitalism in the third world - it works thusly: the first world countries use the third world countries as a source of cheap raw materials and cheap markets for goods. This impoverishes the "third world" countries at the peripheries of capitalism and their citizens are often killed for fighting against this - hence the constant colonial wars in capitalism, all the way up to the present. There have been many stages of imperialism, all causing vast suffering, but in the current version people in the "third world" are impoverished by imperial policies (either by straight imperialism by capitalist nations or indirect imperialism via the world bank, IMF, etc.) and most of their food and raw materials are exported to first world countries for prices that they cannot buy food with, which is compounded by the fact that they are used as cheap markets for subsidised products from the first world, undercutting employment and local sales.
Capitalism has fostered imperialism, exploitation, and suffering
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby peeker01 » Fri 26 Aug 2011, 22:38:27

Take a look at Hong Kong or South Africa and tell me that imperialism and capitalism don't
work. North Africa has a frightfully high birth rate, and if there were no other issues, it would be enough to cause their downfall. I suppose that is the fault of the white man too. Not enough free jimmy hats I suppose. Same thing in America. Six kids, 6 fathers. My fault too, right? Enough Kub, I've had enough.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 01:28:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peeker01', 'T')ake a look at Hong Kong or South Africa and tell me that imperialism and capitalism don't work.
South Africa, are you kidding me?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')espite the dismantling of apartheid in the early 1990s, and significant annual economic growth over the past 10 years, South African cities have the highest levels of inequality in the world, according to the UN Habitat's latest State of the World's Cities report. The flagship report, published every two years, says even though local governments in the continent's richest country have adopted policies to fight poverty, efforts to bridge the gap between rich and poor have for the most part failed. At the report's launch, UN-Habitat executive director Anna Tibaijuka said inequalities were not only increasing in South Africa's urban centres, but were also becoming more entrenched, "which suggests that failures in wealth distribution are largely the result of structural or systemic flaws".

"In Africa, urban income inequalities are highest in southern Africa," she said. "South Africa stands out as a country that has yet to break out of an economic and political model that concentrates resources." Historically, the gap between the haves and have-nots has been vast due to the nature of the apartheid regime, which for decades enriched the country's white population at the expense of their black, coloured and Indian co-inhabitants. Despite majority rule since 1994, the trend has continued. The Johannesburg Poverty and Livelihoods Study (JPLS), released by the Centre for Social Development in Africa at the University of Johannesburg last month, shone the spotlight on eight of the city's most deprived communities to highlight the gravity of their situation.

Two South Africas
Of the 1,409 households surveyed in the third quarter of 2007, just over half (51 percent) earned below US$230 per month, and one in five people had no income at all. This contrasts with the wealth of the northern suburbs, where behind high walls are swimming pools, private schools and German luxury cars parked in double garages.
SOUTH AFRICA: Wealth gap becoming a chasm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('peeker01', 'N')orth Africa has a frightfully high birth rate, and if there were no other issues, it would be enough to cause their downfall. I suppose that is the fault of the white man too. Not enough free jimmy hats I suppose. Same thing in America. Six kids, 6 fathers. My fault too, right? Enough Kub, I've had enough.
I see you abandoned your previous argument that they are all just a bunch a lazy shiftless bums with no work ethic like your dear old grandad. No problem, it was a ridiculously stupid argument to make.

So now your argument is they are all poor because they are popping out too many babies. Where exactly did you learn about demographics, economics, and history, Fox News? I guess you never heard of a little thing called demographic transition. We talk about this topic from time to time here at peak oil. Do a search to find threads on the topic. Until then, here is a summary:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he demographic transition (DT) is the transition from high birth and death rates to low birth and death rates as a country develops from a pre-industrial to an industrialized economic system. Most developed countries are in stage 3 or 4 of the model; the majority of developing countries have reached stage 2 or stage 3. Most developed countries are in stage 3 or 4 of the model; the majority of developing countries have reached stage 2 or stage 3.

# In stage one, pre-industrial society, death rates and birth rates are high and roughly in balance. All human populations are believed to have had this balance until the late 18th century when this balance ended in Western Europe. In fact, growth rates were less than 0.05% at least since the Agricultural Revolution over 10,000 years ago. Birth and death rates both tend to be very high in this stage. Because both rates are approximately in balance, population growth is typically very slow in stage one.
# In stage two, that of a developing country, the death rates drop rapidly due to improvements in food supply and sanitation, which increase life spans and reduce disease. The improvements specific to food supply typically include selective breeding and crop rotation and farming techniques. Other improvements generally include access to technology, basic healthcare, and education. For example, numerous improvements in public health reduce mortality, especially childhood mortality. Prior to the mid-20th century, these improvements in public health were primarily in the areas of food handling, water supply, sewage, and personal hygiene. Interestingly, one of the variables often cited is the increase in female literacy combined with public health education programs which emerged in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In Europe, the death rate decline started in the late 18th century in northwestern Europe and spread to the south and east over approximately the next 100 years. Without a corresponding fall in birth rates this produces an imbalance, and the countries in this stage experience a large increase in population.
# In stage three, birth rates fall due to access to contraception, increases in wages, urbanization, a reduction in subsistence agriculture, an increase in the status and education of women, a reduction in the value of children's work, an increase in parental investment in the education of children and other social changes. Population growth begins to level off. The birth rate decline in developed countries started in the late 19th century in northern Europe. While improvements in contraception do play a role in birth rate decline, it should be noted that contraceptives were not generally available nor widely used in the 19th century and as a result likely did not play a significant role in the decline then. It is important to note that birth rate decline is caused also by a transition in values; not just because of the availability of contraceptives.
# During stage four there are both low birth rates and low death rates. Birth rates may drop to well below replacement level as has happened in countries like Germany, Italy, and Japan, leading to a shrinking population, a threat to many industries that rely on population growth. As the large group born during stage two ages, it creates an economic burden on the shrinking working population. Death rates may remain consistently low or increase slightly due to increases in lifestyle diseases due to low exercise levels and high obesity and an aging population in developed countries. By the late 20th century, birth rates and death rates in developed countries leveled off at lower rates.
Demographic transition
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 02:19:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'A')s for consumption-- of course you are right, there are plenty of calories to go around and it will be the case for awhile. Nevertheless it does not mean that you are entitled to be fed if you fail to feed yourself and your spawn. So, when I feed that corn and oats and soy to pigs I have meat, what do I have when I feed all that to bloated African families? More bloated African families. No, it's time to pay the piper. Thanks for the offer anyway.
Bloated African families? It was capitalism's insatiable hunger for growth that lead to the imperialistic exploitation of Africa, directly resulting in the poverty you see today.


Are you suggesting that at some point of history Africans didnt live in mudhuts/grasshuts full of insects?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', ' ')You can't just heap all of the blame for Africa's poverty and starvation on it's inhabitants when you sit there enjoying the fruits of that massive transfer of wealth.


But you'd agree that if an average Somalian had 5 kids instead of 6.35 it would be easier to feed them, no? And that it wold be easier to feed 3 than 5? No? Was it my choice for them to have their average of 6.35 kids per woman?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', ' ')Africa today would be a prosperous continent if it had not suffered under capitalism's centuries of imperialism.

No, it would not.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 03:04:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'A')re you suggesting that at some point of history Africans didnt live in mudhuts/grasshuts full of insects?
They had such a great civilization that European visitors could not even believe their eyes. They refused to believe that the natives could have built it, and instead suggested that an earlier white civilization must have built it. When archaeologists proved the natives did built it, they were banned from returning to the site for over 25 years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he civilization of Great Zimbabwe was one of the most significant civilizations in the world during the Medieval period. European travelers from Germany, Portugal, and Britain were astonished to learn of this powerful African civilization in the interior of southern Africa. The first European to visit Great Zimbabwe was a German geologist, Carl Mauch, in 1871. Like others before him, Mauch refused to believe that indigenous Africans could have built such an extensive network of monuments made of granite stone. Thus, Mauch assumed that the Great Zimbabwe monuments were created by biblical characters from the north: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” Mauch further stated that a “civilized [read: white] nation must once have lived there.”

Later Europeans also speculated that Great Zimbabwe was built by Portuguese travelers, Arabs, Chinese, or Persians. No consideration was given to the possibility of local indigenous Africans having built the ruins of Great Zimbabwe, because European writers generally agreed that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of significance, particularly not monuments made with skilled stone masonry.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')mportant East African city-states include Mogadishu and Malindi; further south was Kilwa, the leading East African port in the 12th century. According to Ibn Battuta, it was a large and elegant city with stone houses and rich decorations. Trade linked the East African coast with India, China, and the Indies to the East.

Great Zimbabwe was built between 800 and 1500, although the site had apparently been occupied for centuries. Remains consist of sixty acres on which are located two large complexes of stone buildings, a fortress, and a structure now called the Temple. It was surrounded by walls 32 feet high and 17 feet thick, made up of 900,000 granite blocks. The stones of the entire complex stay in place without mortar, and there are the remains of an extensive drainage system.
Civilizations in Africa Before 1500

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'B')ut you'd agree that if an average Somalian had 5 kids instead of 6.35 it would be easier to feed them, no? And that it wold be easier to feed 3 than 5? No? Was it my choice for them to have their average of 6.35 kids per woman?
I suggest you read my post to peeker on demographic transition.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'N')o, it would not.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')mira Woods, director of Foreign Policy in Focus for the Washington D.C. based Institute for Policy Studies says the strategic resources coming out the African continent are the prize, the African people are the victims and multinational corporations driven by excessive greed are the culprits.

“The corporations use the labor and land, the people pay the price. It is absolutely modern day slavery. It is exploitation and makes you think about a 500 year history of exploitation of the African continent from its people during the days of slavery and now its resources,” Ms. Woods told The Final Call. “Very few people—those that have—getting more, those that don’t being exploited. That has been the process.”

The younger Nkrumah further wrote that American neo-colonialism in Africa is equivalent to “international state terrorism,” strangling African economies. America helped enslave African nations to debt from IMF and World Bank loans to enable the “extracting and exploiting of resources, thereby creating starvation, wars, division, disease, poverty, and under development,” all acts of terrorism, he said. In addition, armed reactionary mercenary groups destabilized African governments, inspired coups, fomented ethnic violence, propped up dictatorial puppets The Stolen Wealth of Africa: The Exploitation of a Continent

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')The African World Reparations and Repatriation Commission, at its first conference in Accra, Ghana, issued a report that demanded substantial reparations for the historical exploitation of Africa by Western Europeans and North Americans. These reparations include $777 trillion (USD), full and unconditional cancellation of all African debt, and repatriation assistance to all descendents of Africans who wish to return. The figure of $777 trillion (USD) is based on an estimate of lives lost during the slave trade and colonialism, as well as the estimated value of all resources extracted from Africa from the fifteenth century onward”. The Commission plans to pursue a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice. It represents at least the beginning of putting figures to this abominable crime against humanity.

Throughout the debate, what is not in contention is that slavery and colonialism took place, that it had devastating and irreparable consequence on a continent and that it had extreme inhumane character, and above all that the resources (Material and human), natural wealth of the continent of Africa were pillaged for the growth and economic growth of other continents especially Europe and the Americas, and that is a crime of unimaginable character that must not recur anymore and anywhere in the world.

It is evident that from the 15th century to the 17th century, it is only Africa’s population that did not grow and had a marginal growth in the 19th century while Europe and Asia had tremendous increases to the population. What could account for this strange and shocking trend? This is a demographic catastrophe. The demographic crises of nearly 400 years are indeed intriguing. Quoting from Cypher & Dietz in their book – the process of economic development, 2nd edition page 72, “the slave trade furnished one part of the colonial world with labour to fill the vast lands acquired by colonial powers, at the cost of depopulating Africa.

Source: Walter Rodney, How Europe underdeveloped Africa P. 111 The Struggles and Injustices of Africa
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby americandream » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 04:17:33

Calm down Pretorian and peeker. This ponzi scheme will outlive you and no doubt,. more oil will be liberated from them lazy natives (whoops, poor oppressed peoples) to power many a garden gnome lawn nightlight for a few decades to come..a sight that should continue to warm your parochial hearts. Of course, everything good and familiar comes at a cost and that will no doubt include a massive influx of Libyan refugees.... more for Pretorian to feed his chauvinism on. What's the point of living if there's no one to hate.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 06:27:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'B')ut you'd agree that if an average Somalian had 5 kids instead of 6.35 it would be easier to feed them, no? And that it wold be easier to feed 3 than 5? No? Was it my choice for them to have their average of 6.35 kids per woman?


Paul Colinvaux has explained this in his book The Fates of Nations: A Biological Theory of History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates_of_Nations

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he poor have many children because more children don't require much more to raise. The rich have few children because they can't afford more in their lifestyle.



http://www.neatorama.com/2010/07/24/evolutionary-biology-explains-why-poor-people-have-lots-of-kids-at-a-young-age/

They know, instinctually, that most of their children will not make it into adulthood. So they have more children to give their offspring the best chance of survival. That's the best they can do.
In the western counties, people have access to healthcare. So they have fewer children because they know there is a good chance their child will survive. Almost all developed countries are seeing a decline in birth rates.
The phenomenon can be observed in the developing countries too. The birth rates are falling among the new educated middle class. But the poor continue to have lots of children.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 09:36:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'A')re you suggesting that at some point of history Africans didnt live in mudhuts/grasshuts full of insects?
They had such a great civilization that European visitors could not even believe their eyes. They refused to believe that the natives could have built it, and instead suggested that an earlier white civilization must have built it. When archaeologists proved the natives did built it, they were banned from returning to the site for over 25 years.


Ok, so there was a temple with buildings over 60 acres, great, at least something was built in Africa without white man's help and money, fascinating. Is it supposed to mean that that complex housed all African population at the time? They didn't live in grass and mud huts full of insects?

And what Negroids ever got to do with ports of Mogadishu and Malindi and Kilwa? All of those ports were founded and run by arab/persian/indian merchants.
Here is what wikipedia got to say about Kilwa for example:


The Kilwa Empire prospered even during the early Islamic era. However, the capital city of Kilwa was under siege by members of the native populations of East Africa. The city fell and nearly 2000 of its inhabitants were devoured in a single week. In 980, the Zanj Empire was founded by Ali ibn Hasan and succeeded the Kilwa Empire.

You heard that? DEVOURED. That's about as much of an input to human civilization as any Negroid tribe can do.


PS. So you disagree that it would be easier to feed 5 kids vs 6.35 , 3 vs 5, 1vs 3 and so on. I rest my case here.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 10:05:42

Another explanation for Africa backwardness is given in Guns,Germs and Steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ub-Saharan Africans had mostly wild mammals, whereas Eurasians chanced to have the most docile large animals on the planet: horses and camels that are easily tamed for human transport; but their biological relatives zebras and onagers are untameable; and although Asian elephants can be tamed, it is very difficult to breed them in captivity; goats and sheep for hides, clothing, and cheese; cows for milk; bullocks for tilling fields and transport; and benign animals such as pigs and chickens. Africans, developing alongside large mammals, had available lions, leopards etc. Diamond points out that the only animals useful for human survival and purposes in New Guinea came from the East Asian mainland when they were transplanted during the Austronesian settlement some 4,000–5,000 years ago.


While Europeans could use the Energy Surplus of domestic animals, there were no animals in Africa that could be domesticated.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 10:22:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'A')nother explanation for Africa backwardness is given in Guns,Germs and Steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ub-Saharan Africans had mostly wild mammals, whereas Eurasians chanced to have the most docile large animals on the planet: horses and camels that are easily tamed for human transport; but their biological relatives zebras and onagers are untameable; and although Asian elephants can be tamed, it is very difficult to breed them in captivity; goats and sheep for hides, clothing, and cheese; cows for milk; bullocks for tilling fields and transport; and benign animals such as pigs and chickens. Africans, developing alongside large mammals, had available lions, leopards etc. Diamond points out that the only animals useful for human survival and purposes in New Guinea came from the East Asian mainland when they were transplanted during the Austronesian settlement some 4,000–5,000 years ago.


While Europeans could use the Energy Surplus of domestic animals, there were no animals in Africa that could be domesticated.


there is also a mental handicap, as an average Negroid has an IQ of 70, and half of them are below of that obviously.
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Re: Crisis of capitalism

Unread postby peeker01 » Sat 27 Aug 2011, 10:57:35

Why just concentrate on Africa? Why is Mexico such a backwards $hithole? They had horses,
donkeys, dogs........why does most of Mexico look like the 1700's in any other country?
Why don't the Philippines look like South Korea? Why doesn't Russia succeed like Japan? Why
aren't I driving a Russian or Mexican car instead of a Honda. Why do Serbians insist on murdering
their neighbors like ants?

I'm sick to death of this left wing, PC, academic claptrap BS about civilizations. Any schoolboy
can see that there is a difference among peoples, until of course his powers of reasoning
are destroyed by the American educational system.

There is no crisis of capitalism, just a wide gulf of personal motivation and intelligence. Poor,
stupid people should pick green beans for their welfare check, or go back to school like we all did and succeed in the most opportune economic system ever invented by man.
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