In the long lead up to Peak Oil, annual increases in the aggregate consumption of oil allowed for ever-greater economies of scale and a declining unit cost.
In this period of abundance, it could be said that wasteful use of oil by over-consumers helped the poor by making petroleum more affordable.
Now that Crude Oil is supply-constrained, the reverse is true. Over-consumers of oil are now contributing to aggregate demand in a way which only ever increases prices.
Suddenly it is no longer valid to say "It's none of your business how much petrol I use as long as I can afford it".
Any consumer of a supply-constrained resource who consumes more than the average, can be said to be disproportionately driving up the price of that resource for everyone else. Discuss.
PeakOil is You
Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
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Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by fiedag » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 02:48:31
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by dinopello » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 08:42:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fiedag', 'A')ny consumer of a supply-constrained resource who consumes more than the average, can be said to be disproportionately driving up the price of that resource for everyone else. Discuss.
I'd say, of course this can be said. It's true, the question is - is there anything wrong with that and what to do about it? It does get to one of the more fundamental philosophical issues that eventually distills to what your response is to the overcrowded lifeboat scenario.
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by Cog » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 17:23:48
If you don't like the price of fuel then I suggest you walk, bicycle, use public transit or just don't go anywhere. Gasoline is a commodity like any other. Increased demand for any commodity will raise the price of that commodity. That works whether you are talking free market capitalism or a black market. Are you going to tell the Chinese they can't import more oil next year than they did this year? Going to drop nuclear weapons on their cities if they don't comply?
Just another attempt by the progressives to redistribute wealth. I'm sorry poor people can't live like rich people. It pains me greatly. But get used to it.
But back to the topic at hand. The only way to enforce such a scheme with those who "over-consume" is to put a meter on the car somehow that will only let you fill it up so many times in a month or issue the entire country fuel ration cards. I'm sure progressives would absolutely love this sort of thing but if you want to see shortages and a booming black market, go right ahead with that sort of scheme.
Just another attempt by the progressives to redistribute wealth. I'm sorry poor people can't live like rich people. It pains me greatly. But get used to it.
But back to the topic at hand. The only way to enforce such a scheme with those who "over-consume" is to put a meter on the car somehow that will only let you fill it up so many times in a month or issue the entire country fuel ration cards. I'm sure progressives would absolutely love this sort of thing but if you want to see shortages and a booming black market, go right ahead with that sort of scheme.
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by Pops » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 17:52:32
This is the whole Jevons Paradox bit, just inverted: the more you save, the lower the price, so the more everyone else uses.
Or the higher the MPG the more M/Y driven and the higher the total usage.
We'll use just as much as we can, as fast as we can and let the devil take the hindmost, because that's what monkeys do.
Or the higher the MPG the more M/Y driven and the higher the total usage.
We'll use just as much as we can, as fast as we can and let the devil take the hindmost, because that's what monkeys do.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by fiedag » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 20:02:15
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')f you don't like the price of fuel then I suggest you walk, bicycle, use public transit or just don't go anywhere. Gasoline is a commodity like any other. Increased demand for any commodity will raise the price of that commodity. That works whether you are talking free market capitalism or a black market. Are you going to tell the Chinese they can't import more oil next year than they did this year? Going to drop nuclear weapons on their cities if they don't comply?
Just another attempt by the progressives to redistribute wealth. I'm sorry poor people can't live like rich people. It pains me greatly. But get used to it.
But back to the topic at hand. The only way to enforce such a scheme with those who "over-consume" is to put a meter on the car somehow that will only let you fill it up so many times in a month or issue the entire country fuel ration cards. I'm sure progressives would absolutely love this sort of thing but if you want to see shortages and a booming black market, go right ahead with that sort of scheme.
Just another attempt by the progressives to redistribute wealth. I'm sorry poor people can't live like rich people. It pains me greatly. But get used to it.
But back to the topic at hand. The only way to enforce such a scheme with those who "over-consume" is to put a meter on the car somehow that will only let you fill it up so many times in a month or issue the entire country fuel ration cards. I'm sure progressives would absolutely love this sort of thing but if you want to see shortages and a booming black market, go right ahead with that sort of scheme.
Cog with respect I think you've missed my point. I am not advocating a State-controlled scheme to somehow punish or discourage the over-consumers. I wanted to frame this as a matter of personal morality. A way of saying to those people who would claim their consumption preferences are entirely their own business : No in fact your behaviour impacts poor people and makes them poorer.
They are still welcome to not care a bean about poor people. They just need to remember that their plea for moral impunity (immunity?) is not sound. The poor know this of course. Not that they can always make the argument on classical economic grounds like I did. Under-consumers and the over-consumers are groups which will always be in conflict. Finally I wanted to make the point that this only manifests for commodities which are supply-constrained. The universe is vast but only this solar system is available to us, so these constraints apply to every commodity even sunlight.
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by dinopello » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 21:02:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fiedag', 'C')og with respect I think you've missed my point. I am not advocating a State-controlled scheme to somehow punish or discourage the over-consumers. I wanted to frame this as a matter of personal morality. A way of saying to those people who would claim their consumption preferences are entirely their own business : No in fact your behaviour impacts poor people and makes them poorer.
The societal problem is that the "price at the pump" has become such a determinant of life and death. The moral issue would be more clear if the commodity was water. In a drought, the wealthy washing their cars and watering their lawns while families die of thirst would be pretty clear. Gasoline is almost as critical as water to most people's survival. That's a problem, IMO.
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Re: Above-average consumers increase the price at the pump.
by Pretorian » Mon 22 Aug 2011, 21:17:50
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fiedag', 'C')og with respect I think you've missed my point. I am not advocating a State-controlled scheme to somehow punish or discourage the over-consumers. I wanted to frame this as a matter of personal morality. A way of saying to those people who would claim their consumption preferences are entirely their own business : No in fact your behaviour impacts poor people and makes them poorer.
The societal problem is that the "price at the pump" has become such a determinant of life and death. The moral issue would be more clear if the commodity was water. In a drought, the wealthy washing their cars and watering their lawns while families die of thirst would be pretty clear. Gasoline is almost as critical as water to most people's survival. That's a problem, IMO.
I thought the world was overpopulated anyway? Is it?
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