[Cid_Yama]

Please. You guys live in some alternate reality that is not supported by the polls. (I'm talking independent polls, not right-wingers asking only right-wingers, conducted by Fox or some right-wing think tank.)

Come next election, the Republicans will be swept out by a tidal wave. And the best thing about it, is that you haven't got a clue. You've been lying to yourselves for so long, you're believing your own nonsense.

Oh, and all that talk about eliminating Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, food stamps and other programs, eliminating minimum wage and crushing Unions, keep doing that.

You're doing a good job, and everyone supports you.

That bit about changing the child labor laws in Maine. The Republican Governor of Maine was brilliant to come up with that one. You need to take that national before the next election.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'S')uch nonsense.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'P')lease. You guys live in some alternate reality that is not supported by the polls. (I'm talking independent polls, not right-wingers asking only right-wingers, conducted by Fox or some right-wing think tank.)

Come next election, the Republicans will be swept out by a tidal wave. And the best thing about it, is that you haven't got a clue. You've been lying to yourselves for so long, you're believing your own nonsense.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'P')lease. You guys live in some alternate reality that is not supported by the polls. (I'm talking independent polls, not right-wingers asking only right-wingers, conducted by Fox or some right-wing think tank.)

[vision-master]

The Republicans are great at payen the blame game. The 'no new taxes' they banter about is a scam, most ppl are wise to this. Of course you are from a Red State, so you only see your little bubble.

FYI: our Dem Gov won by only around 9,000 votes + - last election...

[AgentR11]

All politicians are great at playing the blame game, as well as the game of claiming credit for anything good.

Its in the job description.
If they weren't any good at it; they'd never get elected.

[vision-master]

The problem is, those freshman have signed a contract 'no new taxes' period!

There is NO middle ground with them, it's my-way or no-way.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'T')he problem is, those freshman have signed a contract 'no new taxes' period!
There is NO middle ground with them, it's my-way or no-way.

[dissident]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'P')lease. You guys live in some alternate reality that is not supported by the polls. (I'm talking independent polls, not right-wingers asking only right-wingers, conducted by Fox or some right-wing think tank.)

Come next election, the Republicans will be swept out by a tidal wave.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'P')lease. You guys live in some alternate reality that is not supported by the polls. (I'm talking independent polls, not right-wingers asking only right-wingers, conducted by Fox or some right-wing think tank.) ...
That bit about changing the child labor laws in Maine. The Republican Governor of Maine was brilliant to come up with that one. You need to take that national before the next election.

[vision-master]

Blah'man wants to remove minimum wage laws - work for all - yippie......

[Cid_Yama]

Nonsense Cog. Go find it if you think it's there. It's not.

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Agent11', '
')
Gold is not credit, even when used as money. It is a compact store of value, just as coffee and rice are non-compact stores of value.

Granted, in our modern world we just electronically pay with ebits for Dollars and ebits for Reals and even ebits for ETF Gold. But even in the absence of our electronic paradise, this trick works just fine, and did work just fine in times past with physical gold and silver.

Gold is simply a commodity that is compact enough to where its value density makes it suitable to conduct commerce.

From the other side, credit can do what gold can not, it can leverage and it can work on margin. With 1 ounce of gold, I have control of 1 ounce of gold. With $1000, I can control $5000 in assets, magnifying my potential for profit or loss by a factor of 5 (or more). That is the power of credit.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'I') totally agree that we do not have freedom, but why? You seem to think that we need an even stronger central government, yet it is the collusion between government and corporations that has brought us to this point in history where freedom has been destroyed. The powerful corporations and the government have found a mutuality of interests. An government is more powerful and more pervasive than ever before in the history of the US. At the beginning it was hardly 5% of what it is today.

It is a simple fact that the government that was established to protect our liberties, has turned into the chief enemy of those freedoms; as it operates today, the more government we have the less freedom we have, so I think you call for more powerful government is exactly the opposite of what will bring us freedom.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '[')b]Credit is money

[Oakley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '
')
I think money has been around for so long people have forgotten what money really is. Money is a promise that has to be fulfilled in the future. I hear a lot of fascinating definitions of money. Medium of exchange, store of value, claim on labor, unit of accounting. These are the derived uses of money that developed over the millennia. Money fundamentally is a promise. And that is why money only works in a growing system. Because only in a growing system, there is a good chance that both parties will believe that a promise will be fulfilled.
Credit is money And that is why it is accepted so easily in circulation. Because as long as the system is growing, there is a good chance that credit will get you something valuable in future.

Don't believe me? Go deep in to the jungles of Africa and ask the tribals if they will exchange their food in return of gold (medium of exchange). If there is a worldwide famine( shrinking system), what will happen to the price of food with respect to gold(no inflation with gold standard).

I was trying to counter Oakley's assertion that money and freedom can coexist. To me the tribals in Africa are truly free. They don't make promises and they don't owe anybody anything. The "civilized" on the other hand......

[Oakley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', '
')I agree that Big Government and Big Business go hand in hand. Yet you focus exclusively on the first half of that equation. This is my main problem with so-called conservatives, who rail against Big Government as the source of all evils, while giving a pass to the sociopathic behavior of Big Business in this country. The problem is concentration of power, not government per se. Walmart is a far greater threat to middle class America than the EPA.

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Oakley', 'G')old and silver coins as money involves no promise. But if someone issues bills of credit, or scrip which were pieces of paper that promised to give gold or silver coins at some future date or on demand, then they have issued money that does involve a promise. If someone accepts gold and silver coins for safekeeping in their vault, and issues a certificate (warehouse receipt) like silver and gold certificates that circulated as money then these certificates are promises to turn over the gold or silver coins on demand.

The current money supply in the US, if you use the M2 definition is composed of currency in circulation, checking accounts, savings accounts, CD's and travelers checks in circulation. All these are bank credit and redeemable at the banks in nothing other than a different form of bank credit. If you want currency (debts of the Federal Reserve Bank) instead of a checking account balance (debt of your local bank) you cash a check, but you can't get anything else from the bank, hence the current promises of the banks are in reality promises that cannot be redeemed. And this bank credit was created out of thin air and loaned to the public at interest with the purpose of indenturing (enslaving) the public to the banks.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'O')K. Let me put it this way. There is an armegeddon. And you are holding the last morsel of food. How much gold will you trade it for?

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'N')onsense Cog. Go find it if you think it's there. It's not.