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The cuts are a'coming

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 21:46:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'C')ivilized society=Take from me=Give to the mooch class

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Those who condition you pay little (tax lawyers, tax planning and tax mitigation...all quite legal). Even that is too much. But you are not to know. Thats the whole point in rendering you conditioned and ignorant.


Oh I forgot food stamps are a stimulus to the economy according to the Obama administration so I shouldn't object. In fact this program should be expanded since it creates jobs. :-D
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby americandream » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 21:55:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'C')ivilized society=Take from me=Give to the mooch class

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Those who condition you pay little (tax lawyers, tax planning and tax mitigation...all quite legal). Even that is too much. But you are not to know. Thats the whole point in rendering you conditioned and ignorant.


Oh I forgot food stamps are a stimulus to the economy according to the Obama administration so I shouldn't object. In fact this program should be expanded since it creates jobs. :-D


Food stamps keep the consumers reasonably well fed until a mechanism can be found to minimise the state and yet maintain their consumer capacity. Tax mitigation reduces the state to a shell in preparation for mechanisms that will assist the faster circulation of capital so this is happening. I dont know how passively wealthy you are but the faster circulation of capital within a supra-state will be accompanied by the deep impoverishment of the middle and working classes. THIS WILL HAPPEN so if you relish a global state where services are minimal and wages are optimally marginalised with all that brings, have no fear. It is on its way. Ironically, many of the victims will welcome its early onset. As it deepens however, will see the rise of an organic awareness.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Satori » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 22:01:20

lets just stop the foodstamp program
gee
what will happen when 45 million people
a LARGE # of them children are no longer getting fed

foodstamps are insurance against MAJOR social disorder

in my professional capacity I see a lot of people on foodstamps
I don't begrudge them the least little bit
they are all the elderly poor or the working poor

I rather my tax dollars go to them
as opposed to Wall Street and the banksters who continually defraud us all
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 22:14:14

Watching the entitlement mentality on display at the link is quite amazing. I wonder what the woman was thinking when she had six kids that she expects me to provide for. Maybe she felt she was owed it by The Man.

For a quick laugh watch the video at the link. I simple thank you for my donation to their entitlement lifestyle would have been nice.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/lo ... 0810-am-sd

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')LAYTON COUNTY, Ga. - Anger and frustration from dozens of Clayton County parents who say their children are going hungry after their food stamps were suddenly cut off.

State officials admit that something went wrong down in Clayton County at the office that administers food stamps and Medicaid but they're still not sure what.

Parents say they can't buy food without those food stamps.

Quote:
Terry Clark says she stood in line for more than six hours at Clayton County's Human Services Office because food stamp help for her six children unexpectedly ended.

"There's no telling my kids we can't eat. I'm not taking no. We don't deserve that. Nobody should go hungry here in Georgia," said Terry Clark.
State officials say the office was overwhelmed Tuesday with dozens of families facing a similar problem. The food stamps are just not there.

"Me and my kids they haven't ate since this morning. I was supposed to get my food stamps yesterday and I got nothing," said a mother.

A state spokesperson says what happened was out of the ordinary and unexpected but she said they don't know yet what went wrong -- what was the glitch that lead to this mess?
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Satori » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 22:31:33

yeah Cog
go ahead and cut off food stamps
see what happens

you can rant and rail against "the entitlement class" all ya like

but don't forget to include the Wall Street types ,bankers and the defense industry crowd who have robbed us all blind
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 22:53:20

I'm for cutting them too. Fiscal austerity for all. Call it a controlled power-down.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Satori » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:01:14

and what will be the consequences of your actions ??
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:02:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Satori', 'y')eah Cog
go ahead and cut off food stamps
see what happens

you can rant and rail against "the entitlement class" all ya like

but don't forget to include the Wall Street types ,bankers and the defense industry crowd who have robbed us all blind


Surely you aren't saying that violence is inherent in the mooch class? I'm shocked that a progressive would ever suggest such a thing. We can wean people off their sense of entitlements gradually or we can do it all at once when the country collapses from debt. I prefer the former.

Powerdown will involve death and violence. How could it be any other way? To believe we can sustain continual deficit spending is to believe in infinite growth in a resource constrained world. I would have hoped being a member of this board would have dissuaded you from such foolish notions.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Satori » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:10:21

the current failing paradigm will exist for quite some time
it can be "breathing its last" for decades

once again

what will be the consequences of your actions ??
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:13:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Satori', 't')he current failing paradigm will exist for quite some time
it can be "breathing its last" for decades

once again

what will be the consequences of your actions ??


Your assumptions about BAU continuing for decades is based on what exactly?
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Satori » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:27:04

the economy has been on life support for the past 3 years
predictions of its collapse have been made a thousand times
TPTB keep plugging the holes in the dam
they will continue to do so
its ALL they know
its the Long Emergency
sometimes we're running 50 miles an hour towards the wall
sometimes 25
but the decline is inexorable
they can and will drag this out for a long time
barring a black swan of major proportions that is
Last edited by Satori on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 00:49:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Cog » Wed 17 Aug 2011, 23:47:24

If you believe that to be true, then you know that all sorts of things we currently fund won't be able to be funded in the future. Since I believe growth is impossible with expensive oil, there go any assumptions the CBO makes about GDP and revenue growth as well.

Entitlements of all sorts are already getting harder to fund. That will merely accelerate as we go down the debt road. So people will either adapt to that or die. Having a full belly isn't a right and is not the norm around the world. It won't be the norm in the good old USA either.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby americandream » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 00:19:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Satori', 't')he economy has been on life support for the past 3 years
predictions of its collapse have been made a thousand times
TPTB keep plugging the holes in the damn
they will continue to do so
its ALL they know
its the Long Emergency
sometimes we're running 50 miles an hour towards the wall
sometimes 25
but the decline is inexorable
they can and will drag this out for a long time
barring a black swan of major proportions that is


There's a vast bank of surplus available in China, surplus which is repatriated to the Western elites by way of dividends and oter forms of investment return. Economies in the West consequently will become increasingly dependent on investment repatriations witholdings as well as taxes on the casually employed majority for basic needs such as a military budget. The non-passively wealthy majority will fall into casual employments such as gardening and such like servicing these rich. There will of course be a demand for technical skills and professional services as well as entertainment so there will always be a route for ambition (for as long as capitalism can fund it's growth with natural resources.)
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby prajeshbhat » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 00:42:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'W')atching the entitlement mentality on display at the link is quite amazing. I wonder what the woman was thinking when she had six kids that she expects me to provide for. Maybe she felt she was owed it by The Man.

For a quick laugh watch the video at the link. I simple thank you for my donation to their entitlement lifestyle would have been nice.


Now labeling the poor as moochers and blaming them for all the economic problem is convenient escapism. A lot of Americans have convinced themselves that America became number one because of their rugged individualist cowboy, the Lone Ranger, or Prince Valiant businessmen who defeated their counterparts all over the world through fair competition and free enterprise blah, blah, blah.

But I believe that America became number 1 because nobody was number 2. Going back to the 1940s when america rose to become number 1, the rest of the developed world was destroyed by the two wars. And Asia was just recovering from 3 centuries of colonialism.
It should be obvious from the sports Americans play. Baseball. Are you kidding me. Lets take a real sport. Like football (soccer). This is a sport that the whole world participates in. In football, America can't even defeat a third world country like Iran. So they just ridicule the sport, calling it boring or unamerican or gay or whatever.
Europeans manage to provide their citizens with the quality of social services that Americans cannot even dream of. Cannot compete with that so let's just ridicule Europe by calling them socialists. Not that the Europeans are lagging in global competition. Of the fortune 500 companies, 195 are European, compare that with 176 from USA.
These days its becoming obvious that pretty much everything that Americans do, can be done by asians for 1/10th of the cost. Combine that with peak oil.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby eastbay » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 00:56:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '
')These days its becoming obvious that pretty much everything that Americans do, can be done by asians for 1/10th of the cost. Combine that with peak oil.


The word 'Asians' should always be capitalized.

Maybe 1/10 the labor cost in some places in Asia, but not anymore in Japan, SK, Singapore, Malaysia, HK, SE China, Thailand, Macau, or ROC, among others. And even in the places in Asia where labor remains 10% of what it now is in Japan, North America or Western Europe, that doesn't mean 1/10 the cost of production. Not even close. For example, raw materials cost (pretty much) the same everywhere on earth, and transportation can eat up a large percentage of the pie when manufacturing is performed far from the consumer.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby prajeshbhat » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:10:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he word 'Asians' should always be capitalized.

Maybe 1/10 the labor cost in some places in Asia, but not anymore in Japan, SK, Singapore, Malaysia, HK, SE China, Thailand, Macau, or ROC, among others. And even in the places in Asia where labor remains 10% of what it now is in Japan, North America or Western Europe, that doesn't mean 1/10 the cost of production.


Yeah that's right. Many of these countries have manged to provide western standard of living for their citizens. So obviously labor will cost more in these countries.
Now the jobs I am referring to is of the low wage kind. They pay less irrespective of the location. These jobs unfortunately make up for 70% of the workforce. Americans have decided they don't want to pay their citizens even these low wages. They prefer to get it done dirt cheap in Bangladesh.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Keith_McClary » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 02:21:13

Here's an interesting chart of US Fed budget expenditures & receipts as % of GDP:
Image
Reviewing Federal Receipts

Where will these blue & red lines go in the next few years?
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby americandream » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 02:48:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he word 'Asians' should always be capitalized.

Maybe 1/10 the labor cost in some places in Asia, but not anymore in Japan, SK, Singapore, Malaysia, HK, SE China, Thailand, Macau, or ROC, among others. And even in the places in Asia where labor remains 10% of what it now is in Japan, North America or Western Europe, that doesn't mean 1/10 the cost of production.


Yeah that's right. Many of these countries have manged to provide western standard of living for their citizens. So obviously labor will cost more in these countries.
Now the jobs I am referring to is of the low wage kind. They pay less irrespective of the location. These jobs unfortunately make up for 70% of the workforce. Americans have decided they don't want to pay their citizens even these low wages. They prefer to get it done dirt cheap in Bangladesh.


Bangladesh's problem is religion. So to a large extent, they are making the bed they lie on.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby nobodypanic » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 16:33:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', 'W')ell the article makes it sound like he's singling out Europe, I didn't see anything about the US:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]European governments need to restructure their economies to restore the confidence of financial markets as the global economy moves into a new danger zone, World Bank president Robert Zoellick said yesterday.


BTW for anyone who doesn't know, Europeans get to pick the IMF chief and the US gets to pick an American to head the World Bank. Kind of funny, IMF chief was over here doing interviews commenting on the US now our guy is commenting on Europe. :lol:

Come on France and Germany, cut back till you look like Texas and all your new jobs pay $7-$9 per hour and it's illegal immigrants working them all. Yeah that's a good plan.


Governments telling each other to cut spending :| Basically means Americans want Europeans to cut spending so that they can increase theirs. It's all about oil you see. If the demand from Europe falls the price of oil will go down. So Americans can go back to happy motoring.

it can't work that way. if europe cuts back, then aggregate demand falls, and capital will be unable to outpace the declining rate of profit. capital accumulation will then become unprofitable and the system will go into crisis.

capitalism is the worse system you can have going into peak-oil. note, i am not suggesting we have reached that hard physical limit yet.
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Re: The cuts are a'coming

Postby Pops » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 17:02:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'W')here will these blue & red lines go in the next few years?

They won't come even close without increasing taxes, that's a given.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut revenue has been below 15 percent of G.D.P. since 2009, and the last time we had three years in a row when revenue as a share of G.D.P. was that low was 1941 to 1943.
... The reason, of course, is that taxes were cut in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006.
... It would have been one thing if the Bush tax cuts had at least bought the country a higher rate of economic growth, even temporarily. They did not. Real G.D.P. growth peaked at just 3.6 percent in 2004 before fading rapidly. Even before the crisis hit, real G.D.P. was growing less than 2 percent a year.

Few people remember that a major justification for the 2001 tax cut was to intentionally slash the budget surplus. President Bush said this repeatedly during the 2000 campaign, and it was reiterated in his February 2001 budget document.

In this regard, at least, the Bush-era tax cuts were highly successful. According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion.


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