[Cloud9]

It always intrigues me that the students of the great depression focus on the Keynesian spending of the New Deal as the vehicle that got us out of the depression. They simply overlook the War. World War II created a unique set of circumstances that benefitted the United States.

1. It rapidly expanded the industrial base of the United States.
2. It decimated the industrial base of Europe and Asia.
3. It forced austerity on American consumers at a time of near full employment vastly expanding personal savings and fueling pent up demand.

As a result of the proceeding three factors, the United States became a hyper power in the last half of the twentieth century. Absent these three factors, money printing simply feeds the beast and destroys the middle class. By debasing the currency you devalue savings and pension plans. You get no expansion of the industrial base. You get no forced savings. What you get is hoarding as individuals rush to exchange their dollars for commodities. The resulting scarcities fuel more printing.

Government has no solution but will foist upon us all more government. The greatest enemy we will all face in the coming decades is the tax man as all levels of government scramble for the few remaining pockets of wealth. Get ready to lose the farm in a tax sale.

[Cid_Yama]

We are here because Wall street ran a massive mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme with the blessing and assistance of the Bush Administration that fleeced the entire world, including our own people. When it blew up, the entire world economy seized up and crashed. Cargo ships sat idle in ports and were scrapped by the thousands. Global trade fell off a cliff.

President Obama pulled us back from total default. And as I said, It was a minor miracle. And as I said, the Republican immediately started bashing holes in the boat, because having President Obama fail was more important than saving the country.

This is all about who pays for what Wall Street did. This isn't debts the American people racked up. This is the devastation left in the wake of the mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme.

The problem is, the Republican's have been placing the blame for where we are on the working American, when the blame squarely falls on Goldman Sachs.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'I')t always intrigues me that the students of the great depression focus on the Keynesian spending of the New Deal as the vehicle that got us out of the depression. They simply overlook the War. World War II created a unique set of circumstances that benefitted the United States.

[nobodypanic]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'I')t always intrigues me that the students of the great depression focus on the Keynesian spending of the New Deal as the vehicle that got us out of the depression. They simply overlook the War. World War II created a unique set of circumstances that benefitted the United States.

1. It rapidly expanded the industrial base of the United States.
2. It decimated the industrial base of Europe and Asia.
3. It forced austerity on American consumers at a time of near full employment vastly expanding personal savings and fueling pent up demand.

As a result of the proceeding three factors, the United States became a hyper power in the last half of the twentieth century. Absent these three factors, money printing simply feeds the beast and destroys the middle class. By debasing the currency you devalue savings and pension plans. You get no expansion of the industrial base. You get no forced savings. What you get is hoarding as individuals rush to exchange their dollars for commodities. The resulting scarcities fuel more printing.

Government has no solution but will foist upon us all more government. The greatest enemy we will all face in the coming decades is the tax man as all levels of government scramble for the few remaining pockets of wealth. Get ready to lose the farm in a tax sale.

[eXpat]

S&P says: behave yourself or you will be downgraded again !
S&P warns of a second downgrade
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne day after lowering the nation’s platinum triple-A credit rating, Standard & Poor’s analysts warned Saturday that the U.S. government could face a second downgrade if the economy continues to struggle and the government fails to make the cuts outlined in the debt ceiling agreement.

The ratings agency on Friday downgraded the nation to AA+ for the first time in history, saying partisanship in Washington is preventing dramatic deficit reduction.
S&P managing director John Chambers told reporters on a Saturday conference call that the toxic mix of a listless economy and political infighting will cause government debt to grow.

“Compared to some other highly rated governments, the U.S. government does not have the proactive ability to put public finances on a firm footing,” Chambers said.

His colleague David Beers said the partisan discord increases the risk that Washington will not achieve effective policy remedies.

“For that reason, there’s a lot of uncertainty about the future debt burden,” Beers said.

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t always intrigues me that the students of the great depression focus on the Keynesian spending of the New Deal as the vehicle that got us out of the depression. They simply overlook the War. World War II created a unique set of circumstances that benefitted the United States.
1. It rapidly expanded the industrial base of the United States.
2. It decimated the industrial base of Europe and Asia.
3. It forced austerity on American consumers at a time of near full employment vastly expanding personal savings and fueling pent up demand.

[bluekachina]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'W')e are here because Wall street ran a massive mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme with the blessing and assistance of the Bush Administration that fleeced the entire world, including our own people. ...
This is all about who pays for what Wall Street did. This isn't debts the American people racked up. This is the devastation left in the wake of the mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme.
The problem is, the Republican's have been placing the blame for where we are on the working American, when the blame squarely falls on Goldman Sachs

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'T')his is all about who pays for what Wall Street did. This isn't debts the American people racked up. This is the devastation left in the wake of the mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme.

[bluekachina]

The people that created the derivitives and the complicit rating agencies are to blame.

As well as the Bush Administration that turned a blind eye to it all.

The house flipping was an ecouraged by-product to ensure a steady supply of mortgages to bundle.

You're not fooling anyone. Don't be pointing at the victims or the minor accomplices, It was a fraudulent enterprise conducted by Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street investment banks.

House flippers had nothing to do with selling this garbage to the rest of the world.

Also, don't give us that bit about everybody played. The average working person could barely afford a house to live in. If I'm not mistaken, most in the US rent.

The very people you are heaping the burden of paying on, didn't play at all, or were victims of the adjustable rate refinancing scam.

US investment bankers are criminals of the highest order. Where are the prosecutions?

[AgentR11]

So Bob the Burger Flipper taking a vacation in Tahiti remains completely blameless.
right.

[bluekachina]

I just looked up the US minimum wage. $7.25 an Hour. X 40 hrs = $290.00 a week. Maybe $1000.00 a month take home.

Utilities maybe $400.00, Food maybe $200.00, rent or house payment would take the rest. Bob the burger flipper was not vacationing in Tahiti nor participating in the fraud perpetrated by Wall Street.

EDIT: A miscalculation. At the time of the Fraud minimum wage was $5.15 an hour. that's $206.00 a week maybe $750 take home a month. How did these people survive? The US mistreats it's people and doesn't deserve a place at the table with the rest of us.

[Ibon]

It has been interesting reading through the last several pages of debate over who is to blame.
Beyond the positions taken there is a fundamental truth we all have to recognize and that is that we are still stuck collectively at the blame stage. Nothing constructive happens when there is no pulling together to confront the issue. This is a very generic comment on my part but is worth mentioning since in this regard this thread resembles the mainstream more than many of us care to admit since most of us are on this website in the first place because we apparently believe we are ahead of the curve in our intellectual grasp of economic events.

You might all want to ponder that thought for a minute.

[AgentR11]

Let me do the math for you then.

Burger flipper finds suitable house, valued 150k.
Burger flipper goes to his agent. Agent smiles.
Agent hooks Burger Bob up with a subprime guy that cooks an interest only + bubble pmt 3 yr arm, so Bob has 6 months before he has to pay anything at all.
Bob immediately starts looking to sell the house.
3 months pass, the house is valued now at 180k, Bob takes equity line.
withdraws 20k, pays a bit on the arm, pushes his drop dead date to 12 months out
uses remaining 15k to party
8 months later, Bob sells house for 210k (to another flipper likely), pays off crazy mortgage, and then goes house hunting.

rinse repeat.

All is fine, unless that last line fails.
When it failed. The whole Ponzi scheme from top to bottom went splat.

Bob is not the only one at fault here, everyone in that chain is; from the agent, to the legislators who force subprime lenders into existence and then them accepting fraudulent apps, to Bush and Clinton for failing to demand oversight on such a large market, to the bankers who were too hesitant to unwrap and audit those derivatives; to the traders who put them together in the first place knowingly concealing worthless assets.

Don't say it didn't happen, because I *WATCHED IT HAPPEN*.
It was trendy and cool even.
What is the point in denying that it happened?

edit: bobbled 3 vs 30

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bluekachina', 'I') just looked up the US minimum wage. $7.25 an Hour. X 40 hrs = $290.00 a week. Maybe $1000.00 a month take home.
Utilities maybe $400.00, Food maybe $200.00, rent or house payment would take the rest. Bob the burger flipper was not vacationing in Tahiti nor participating in the fraud perpetrated by Wall Street.
EDIT: A miscalculation. At the time of the Fraud minimum wage was $5.15 an hour. that's $206.00 a week maybe $750 take home a month. How did these people survive? The US mistreats it's people and doesn't deserve a place at the table with the rest of us.

[ItalyRules]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bluekachina', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cid_Yama', 'T')his is all about who pays for what Wall Street did. This isn't debts the American people racked up. This is the devastation left in the wake of the mortgage derivitive Ponzi scheme.
The problem is, the Republican's have been placing the blame for where we are on the working American, when the blame squarely falls on Goldman Sachs.

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ob is not the only one at fault here, everyone in that chain is; from the agent, to the legislators who force subprime lenders into existence and then them accepting fraudulent apps, to Bush and Clinton for failing to demand oversight on such a large market, to the bankers who were too hesitant to unwrap and audit those derivatives; to the traders who put them together in the first place knowingly concealing worthless assets.
Don't say it didn't happen, because I *WATCHED IT HAPPEN*.
It was trendy and cool even. What is the point in denying that it happened?

[ItalyRules]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')eyond the positions taken there is a fundamental truth we all have to recognize and that is that we are still stuck collectively at the blame stage.

[Cog]

Both the lender and the person who signed up for these subprime loans, with no reasonable way to pay off the loan, deserve to get burned on them. Unfortunately, we seemed to have let the lender off the hook on the risk with the TARP bailout.

[Fishman]

We will argue all day who is to blame. The consequences are much clearer. This is a disaster of biblical proportion for the left. The right may have to suck it up and pay higher taxes, but this is the end of the credit line for the left. Without ever increasing amounts of money the left shrivels, "I'm sorry, I can't buy your vote anymore". The left will scream, "you did this on purpose" the right will laugh back, "you knew this was coming, they warned you numerous times, but you payed no attention" The grasshopper and the ant all over again. The winter is coming.

Right now in Europe, Obama is getting his a$$ chewed out by the Europeans and the Chinese.

[Shar_Lamagne]

Ad hom deleted. What you just posted is just blathering, devoid of content.

I feel sorry for the average working family in the US. You will now find yourself in the same position as the Russian people at the cusp of the Russian revolution.

When your children are starving, and they refuse to give you food, but guard it on the way to ships, taking it to countries that can pay, you will be faced with the ultimate decision.