[Daphne64]

It's quite a bit worse than most people realize. Here in the US about one out of 100 6 year olds has an autism spectrum disorder. That's at least a couple times the rate with 12 year olds. There are almost no adults with autism yet, but the first wave is starting to graduate from high school. Mental illness is also on the rise with young adults - particularly bipolar disorder.

A lot of parents bear the burden more or less alone with an autistic child, but as these kids hit puberty a significant fraction of them turn violent.

I personally think it's primarily vaccines is a big chunk of the blame, but the fact is that autism in unvaccinated kids is about half that of vaccinated kids, so there is something else going on.

This wave would have bankrupted 1st world societies if they hadn't already gone bankrupt. I don't know what is going to happen with all these kids. What does an aging parent do with a 25 year old that is violent and operates at a 2 year old level when they are homeless? A part of me wishes all the parents of adult autistic children would leave them in US capital building and let the federal government figure out what to do with them - that might make them care about the issue!

I suspect there will be lots of individual tragedies - quite a few murder-suicides by parents, some abandonings, more parents murdered by their kids (I've heard of two cases so far).

Maybe people will get creative and come up with their own solutions - forming coops where the patients are not so much supervised as confined might be a possibility (yeah it's a pretty grim scenario, but it would have the effect of reducing the danger to productive members of society)

I think a lot of ordinary people will be walking around with protection in the future - guns or tasers.

[SeaGypsy]

Its not quite true that autism has only just emerged I have worked with classicly autistics up to their mid 50's now It is true the stats have exploded and it's a life sentence for parents who decide not to just dump the problem child and run.

(I am a conscientious objector to immunisation, as are about 90% of doctors in Australia with regards to their own children)

[vision-master]

What the World needs now is Ayahuasca.

[Cloud9]

This is what happens in the absence of law enforcement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

[Shaved Monkey]

If the SHTF I would imagine their would be a massive shift in who went mad and who got cured. The dregs may well be the pink skinned, soft handed office worker, with no tangible survival skills.
Depending on severitiy we could see the liberation of the poor from dead end jobs, crippling mortgages,and carrot on a stick chaseing and return to the land for a more peaceful and meaningful life and we could see Stock brokers jumping from windows and the former rich hanging from ropes in their garages,because they cant cope.
Governments should be investing in organic prison farm facilities for ex-executives that will go mad.

[Fishman]

History would indicate
"Depending on severitiy we could see the liberation of the poor from dead end jobs,(its called unemployment) crippling mortgages (to homeless),and carrot on a stick chaseing and return to the land for a more peaceful and meaningful life (starvation, somalia like poverty)"

"I personally think it's primarily vaccines is a big chunk of the blame, but the fact is that autism in unvaccinated kids is about half that of vaccinated kids, so there is something else going on"
Well when they took the thiomersal mercury out, they found more autism. We may see more autism in vaccinated folks (I know of NO medical literature that states such) but I have worked in third world countries, seen the scourges of polio, read about diphtheria choking the life out of children, death of children from simple measles, talked with older doctors who told stories of children routinely coming in with meningitis which turned normal people into these "dregs" some have described here. As for me and my house, we'll get most of our vaccines. When"the money dries up" the vaccinated are far more likely to live, the unvaccinated will rapidly die off.

[SeaGypsy]

There has been no conclusive proof put forward that immunisation is directly implicated in the concurrent epidemic in autism rates. The fact that this explosion in numbers has occurred simultaneous to the growth in use of these medicines is interesting anecdotally, but does not amount to proof. The air people breath has a lot of chemicals in it which never existed until the same period of time, so there could be something there, flouridisation or some chemical mismatch not yet understood by science.

Personally I have chosen to not vaccinate my children on the following basis:

Immunistaion is most effective where the application rate approaches 100%/ this is true, bui there is no statistical epidemic increase between a society with 90% uptake and 100%. This is a quirk of mathematics in epidemiology and it is a fact that if enough people took this advice it would destroy what efficacy these programs have, which has undoubtedly been huge.

[Fishman]

"The answer is to outlaw public ownership of companies and outlaw investment/lending."
Soviet Union did this, absolute failure, Mexico is doing the same with their oil company, absolute failure

"If all companies must be privately owned, and the only way to make money off your money is to own your own business, you solve the whole mess." Except private ownership would concentrate money into even fewer hands.

When there is no way to make money off your money, no place to put your money, there is less incentive to accumulation,( or to work any significant amount) only to fund your own business, creating jobs, and enhancing real competition in the marketplace. (nope, eliminating competition, why work harder if you can't accumulate? No investment, no new jobs)"

"When public ownership is eliminated, it puts a natural cap on the size of businesses (not true). It also creates a clear chain of liability. Every business will have a private owner who will ultimately be responsible.(and hire more lawyers)

"Investment bankers are the scourge of the world and need to be eliminated." They can be greedy and should have some reins, the rest of your argument is just foolish

[Fishman]

No SeaGypsy, not a quirk, its simple herd immunity. And you are depending on other folks taking risk so you do not have to (immoral?) When the money "dries up" such that fewer CAN get vaccinated, your risk skyrockets. My friends who are doctors LOVE those folks that don't get vaccinated, they live for the rare (but perhaps soon to increase chance with more unvaccinated) pathology of treating these diseases that were almost eliminated.

[Shaved Monkey]

If the SHTF big time you wont need employment to not be homeless.
Theres plenty of free houses you just need to know where to look
Lots of backyards to grow veggies in too
Just sit back and watch the skilless,former ladder climbers, with shopping adictions, go mad while tucked up cosy inside their ex investment property rent free.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ROPERTY speculators have locked up 46,220 empty homes in metropolitan Melbourne, the housing campaign group Earthsharing Australia says.

In a documentary soon to be released, Real Estate 4 Ransom, the group says that 4.95 per cent of the city's potential housing stock is unoccupied, double the rental vacancy rate of 2.4 per cent published last week by the Real Estate Institute of Victoria.

[SeaGypsy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'N')o SeaGypsy, not a quirk, its simple herd immunity. And you are depending on other folks taking risk so you do not have to (immoral?) When the money "dries up" such that fewer CAN get vaccinated, your risk skyrockets. My friends who are doctors LOVE those folks that don't get vaccinated, they live for the rare (but perhaps soon to increase chance with more unvaccinated) pathology of treating these diseases that were almost eliminated.

[Daphne64]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'N')o SeaGypsy, not a quirk, its simple herd immunity. And you are depending on other folks taking risk so you do not have to (immoral?) When the money "dries up" such that fewer CAN get vaccinated, your risk skyrockets. My friends who are doctors LOVE those folks that don't get vaccinated, they live for the rare (but perhaps soon to increase chance with more unvaccinated) pathology of treating these diseases that were almost eliminated.

[SeaGypsy]

The most singularly important factor in increased life expectancy is nutrition, followed by the most important life saving tehnology ever, soap.

It is a fact that autism now affets average 1% of children in fully immunised communities and less than a tenth of this in unimmunised. The chances of your child dieing from one of the commonly immuno shot diseases are less than 1000 times less than getting autism, if you are first world economily. To my mind preventing the much more likely problem of autism far outweighs some supposed moral concern about epidemiology on an individual level when it comes to looking after my family. Whilst there is no proof that autism is the result of preventative medicine, there is a ton of anecdotal evidence.

On your point about what happens when the system breaks down and community immunity is lost, subsequent risk inrease. You have a point to some extent, but all these bugs mutate.

Another point is that these diseases tend to kill, rather than maim. Autism can create lifelong utter dependency, and it is doing so far more often than any other disease or all other diseases put together.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'M')y friends who are doctors LOVE those folks that don't get vaccinated, they live for the rare (but perhaps soon to increase chance with more unvaccinated) pathology of treating these diseases that were almost eliminated.

[Mesuge]

Do you really think of any natural species, some of them around for a few hundred million years, being self-vaccinated? No the nature is "cruel" , large percentage of babyseals and other baby mammals (to stick with our league) simply won't make it into their first year. Do you really think that the human genepool is advanced by artificial fertilization techniques, flue shots by big pharma and what have you in the environment full of toxic waste/pollution in the air/water/food which react with it? The answer is NO.

Perhaps, I'm the odd bird a "self-hating" human lol.
But with my medical record involving numerous surgeries (ok partly accidents), child asthma (cured/stabilized) and other stuff I simply know that it is not very fair to pass such predicament on the next generations just for some silly/selfish "paternal/maternal" instincts and urges, especially with the looming correction, ehm die-off.

Moreover, you can invest love in so many other beings already around you, incl. kids from your wider family/clan area or the poor of the world, if that floats your boat better.

I'm glad SeaGypsy started this topic, I guess this very area is going to take most of the psycho toll on the starving world as we submerge into the net energy darkness. This might take suddenly utter prominence for many over their guns, pm, gardens and what have you on your personal to-do top list.

[SeaGypsy]

That's starting to move the conversation more into what my instincts, intuition and experience travelling extensively in SE Asia and remote Oz during the peak period tell me, quite different to most observers in a fixed location's perspectivec

I take a special interest in subcultural groups and their application to living in their surroundings. I am intensely interested in what is at the ore of human nature and how it really expresses it's self in unconstrained settings/ semi lawless and lawless remote multilingual communities particularly interest me.

Unlike most 'doomers' I believe that human nature is intrinsicly inclined to form quite cohesive spontaneous colletive structures of power capable of mostly keeping the peace and usually more effectively than the pretense of law and order we pay for now in most developed countries.

[Fishman]

Sorry nutrition doesn't cut it. Polio used to strike the well to do kids more than the poor (the poor were exposed at a much younger age and didn't suffer the consequences). And I assume great nutrition will easy to obtain when "the money dries up"? We will debate autism all day and never reach a consensus. Please, feel free not to vaccinate. In times of diminished resources or a health care system moving to "SOME care for all" as opposed to "ALL care for some", good luck. Me, I'm trying to get vaccinations that are normally given to older folks before the system crashes. But I agree "Every parent needs to research vaccines very thoroughly and see what ones make sense and what ones don't." Menactra and hpv, relatively worthless

AR, sorry you got the flu, the flu shot is a crap shoot. Sometimes the dice roll your way sometimes they don't. I prefer weighted dice.

Mesuge, you are certainly free to express your opinion. I see little data to back you up. Please feel free to avoid the hospital and all the terrible trappings of big pharma the next time you are sick.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'A')R, sorry you got the flu, the flu shot is a crap shoot. Sometimes the dice roll your way sometimes they don't. I prefer weighted dice.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re we going to go back in time and ban the evil "medicine man" who learned how to set fractures, clean wounds, and keep fevers from killing group members? [as well as knowing the best stuff to get high on? lol]

[Ferretlover]

What happens to the "dregs?" The same thing that will happen to all of us who find themselves in the collapsed situation-only, the weak, handicapped, young, old, etc., will feel the effects first. Those who are a drain on dwindling resources and cannot fight/defend their access to resources, will be "kicked to the wayside."
It is unreasonable to assume that any person or group wanting to help others will be able to do so for the lifetime of the disabled-for that is what they expect.
When it comes down to feeding yourself and your own, or giving your meager resources away to someone else, guess who will win out.
Without a functioning support system of some kind set up, even the youngish healthy adults will find it difficult to surrmount the proverbial perfect storm.
No, I have no links to support my opinion, just my own logic.